What is Aston Martin up to?

[David L]

Originally Posted by Nordic

Pretty sure the Nimrod shared only a small amount in design terms with either car. It was not as simple as a Lola T600 with an Aston motor dropped in, and would be closer to the T70 in concept than the T600 series

See my previous post for chassis lineage..

As far as the Nimrod having more in common with T70 than T600, I beg to differ.. Nimrod and T600 were both ground effect, T70 was not..

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Or take the Acura route of starting with the Lola base and modifying to suit the engine and then include a few exterior cues of the AM street cars. Hoping it is the announcement, when is the Autosport show?

Would there be an official AM/Prodrive anouncement if it was only an engine supply deal? If it really is just an engine deal, AM can probably not hope to score victories against the Diesel opposition, so from a marketing point it might be smarter for them to not align themselves to closely to that project (at least not in public perspection).

I think such a deal would be rather announced by Charouz, than bei AM/Prodrive.

Can anyone remember who announced the Swiss Spirit Lola Audi? Was it Audi or the team?

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

I think the suggestion is that this would be an 'engine deal' for an existing LMP1 team (either leased, like the Audi/Swiss Spirit deal or a full works backed/funded deal along the lines of the Creation/Aim deal).

but which existing team has the prestige and clout to carry the AM badge via a customer engine deal?.......I would be surprised to see this happen, as there arent any existing teams of this pedigree for such a major name.......Prodrive would have to do the whole job to ensure the results follow, much like Acura have done with the Lola and Courage chassis.......P1 is the logical next step for the prodrive team.......I cant see it happening any other way.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by knighty

but which existing team has the prestige and clout to carry the AM badge via a customer engine deal?.......I would be surprised to see this happen, as there arent any existing teams of this pedigree for such a major name.......Prodrive would have to do the whole job to ensure the results follow, much like Acura have done with the Lola and Courage chassis.......P1 is the logical next step for the prodrive team.......I cant see it happening any other way.

It might be a political exercise: Give the engine to a top-running private team and let them race against the diesel juggernauts. Of course they are gonna have a really hard time, so AM can claim that the rules for production based engines are not fair when they enter P1 by themselves, and with a little luck get some breaks by the ACO.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by David L

No, the T385 (the Nimrod Chassis) was based on the, then current, T600..

This is reasonably well documented and I have quickly checked two published reference sources since writing my original post..

The T70 link seems to be that various people likened the project, at the time, to it being an "update" of the works Astons of 1967, which were, as we know, basically the works T70's.. But it was the project iyself which was being likened to the T70, not the actual car itself..

My (rather sketchy, I admit) understanding re the T70/T385 similarities (or not) is based entirely on a conversation I listened to between my Dad and a 'bod' involved in the Nimrod project at Brands Hatch (presumably in 1982) rather than anything documented. I have always assumed what I heard to be correct.

Thanks for the info, David!

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

It might be a political exercise: Give the engine to a top-running private team and let them race against the diesel juggernauts. Of course they are gonna have a really hard time, so AM can claim that the rules for production based engines are not fair when they enter P1 by themselves, and with a little luck get some breaks by the ACO.

While I can understand the logic in this, if correct, I really don’t thing this will achieve anything that we don’t already know........ the front running Judd V10 engined cars have already proven the huge gap between gas and diesel regs……..and the V12 AM engine is a pretty poor engine design for a race motor, it has an included valve angle of about 40 degrees (bad news), and is quite a tall and heavy motor……its not even comparable to a Judd…….ok, it will be a good basis to get AM started in LMP1………. but long term, if AM want to stick with the gasoline route with hope of taking on Audi & Pug, they will need a clean sheet design for sure.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by knighty

While I can understand the logic in this, if correct, I really don’t thing this will achieve anything that we don’t already know........ the front running Judd V10 engined cars have already proven the huge gap between gas and diesel regs……..and the V12 AM engine is a pretty poor engine design for a race motor, it has an included valve angle of about 40 degrees (bad news), and is quite a tall and heavy motor……its not even comparable to a Judd…….ok, it will be a good basis to get AM started in LMP1………. but long term, if AM want to stick with the gasoline route with hope of taking on Audi & Pug, they will need a clean sheet design for sure.

You could be right, but then the ACO has introduced regulations for homologated engines such as this, to try and performance equalize them. The ACO rarely gets these things right on purpose, will wait and see if they get this one right.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by knighty

While I can understand the logic in this, if correct, I really don’t thing this will achieve anything that we don’t already know........ the front running Judd V10 engined cars have already proven the huge gap between gas and diesel regs……..and the V12 AM engine is a pretty poor engine design for a race motor, it has an included valve angle of about 40 degrees (bad news), and is quite a tall and heavy motor……its not even comparable to a Judd…….ok, it will be a good basis to get AM started in LMP1………. but long term, if AM want to stick with the gasoline route with hope of taking on Audi & Pug, they will need a clean sheet design for sure.

What the Aston V12 has proved is that it can be run flat out for 24hrs, unlike every current P1 petrol motor, other than the Audi V8 TT.

How many times do we see GT1 factory cars in the top six at then end of a 6/12/24 hr events?

Last season, Penskes speed and reliability forced Audi into mistakes, right now, if you're Audi or Peugeot, you can be sure by the 3 hr mark the leading petrol P1's will have hit enough trouble to put them out of the running for an overall win. Other than Pescarolo, who has even been within touching distance should Audi or Peugeot lose a lap or two, usually they're 2 laps down on pure pace, another 3 down due to an alternator failing or some electrical gremlins.

In 2008 P1 spec, the Aston V12 should have little trouble touching 700bhp (650bhp+ '07
p1 spec, plus 3% larger petrol restrictors, plus breaks for homologated enginers).

As for the V12 package, the larger, turbocharged diesels have shown big power/torque and reliability beat out small, lighweight, but often fragile F1 type engines that rarely run to their full potential during the race.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by JAG

What the Aston V12 has proved is that it can be run flat out for 24hrs, unlike every current P1 petrol motor, other than the Audi V8 TT.

In 2008 P1 spec, the Aston V12 should have little trouble touching 700bhp (650bhp+ '07
p1 spec, plus 3% larger petrol restrictors, plus breaks for homologated enginers).

Jag - I'm sorry but I dont quite agree with those two comments, although I'm all ears to how you predicted 700bhp for the power?.....the Judd 5.0 and 5.5 V10 units have proven to be very reliable 24hr motors on several occasions.

could you please describe to me, with a few more numbers and percentages, how you come to 700bhp?.......whats the actual restrictor break the ACO have handed to AM ref the production based GT1 engine when jumping up to P1?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by knighty

whats the actual restrictor break the ACO have handed to AM ref the production based GT1 engine when jumping up to P1?

www.lemans.org the restrictors are right in the regulations. Have a look.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

www.lemans.org the restrictors are right in the regulations. Have a look.

Restrictor size for 6 litre V12 and 4 valves/cilinder:

• GT1: 2 x 30.4 mm
• LMP1 homologated: 2 x (33.3 + 0.4) = 2 x 33.7 mm
• LMP1 non-homologated: 2 x 32.5 mm

If A/C is used, add extra 0.3 mm.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by knighty

the Judd 5.0 and 5.5 V10 units have proven to be very reliable 24hr motors on several occasions.

Are they running flat out, or are they backing them off a bit to make the distance? When the factory guys can run as hard as they do detuning the motor does you no favors. We have seen Aston run the V12 flat out against the Corvettes.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Someone helping the lazy posters

Restrictor size for 6 litre V12 and 4 valves/cilinder:

• GT1: 2 x 30.4 mm
• LMP1 homologated: 2 x (33.3 + 0.4) = 2 x 33.7 mm
• LMP1 non-homologated: 2 x 32.5 mm

If A/C is used, add extra 0.3 mm.

Thanks

[SebringMG]

From what i have seen over the past couple of years no single P1 car other than the Audi has proven capable of running flat out for 24 hours - the Pescarolos have been running to a pace.

Corvette and Aston do run flat out for 24 hours - while the Aston V12 is not an ideal configuration and is heavier than the Judd V10 i suspect that the engine will end up being quite a bit better!! Factory vs privateer argument again

[knighty]

bugger, I forgot my magazine today, the previous edition of race engine magazine detailed all the Aston V12 GT1 power outputs verses the differing restrictor sizes in the ALMS, from that I will plug in the 33.7mm figure and see what the power figure comes out at.......thats assuming a linear relationship

regarding running the Judd 5.5 engines not flat out, I thing your all a tad wrong, in the days of the 4.0 V10 I'd say yes as it was a screamer......but the 5.0 and 5.5 litre engines spin a great deal slower due to their increased capacity, so they dont need to restrict them further for 24hrs.

no - from what I have seen of the V12 aston engine design, it will be a less than ideal LMP1 engine......it was a lousy GT1 engine to be honest, the Ferrari V12 GT1 engine that Prodrive previously used before the AM deal was a far better piece of kit......AM pretty much admitted this to race engine magazine.

[Nordic]

I seem to recall TWR Jag's doing pretty well with a less than ideal, but proven and reliable stock based V12 a few years ago......

If it does come to pass that a Prodrive Aston engine does find its way into a car (or better still a complete prodrive car), then good luck to them, I would not consider Prodrive to be mugs and am sure they would not even consider something if they thought they did not have a chance.

As for the heritage of the Nimrod project, it is fair to say at least it shared the windscreen and pedal box with the T70.
How closely it was related to the T600 I could not say and would be interested in seeing more about the connection between the two.

[AMT]

I can shed some light on this, because I designed the monocoque and suspension for the T385. Initially, Robin Hamilton wanted a T70Mk3b adapted to take the Aston engine, but Eric convinced him that it would not be competitive a decade on. Eric left me to design a new tub, simple and cheap in construction, using as many existing parts as possible in the rest of the car. The tub didn't resemble the T600 (which I also worked on) at all. Frankly, I can't remember what existing parts from which models were used, but I seem to remember designing a new rear upright and front wishbones.

[The359]

Seems odd that someone would even consider running a T70 that many years later.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Nordic

I seem to recall TWR Jag's doing pretty well with a less than ideal, but proven and reliable stock based V12 a few years ago.......

yes, I think your right, taking a production based 60 degree V12 has worked for TWR-Jag, and also the Williams BMW V12 in 1999.....both won, so it can be done.......I'll do a rough power prediction calc tonight......I must admit on paper, a pair of 33.7 restrictors, or 34 with air con looks quite attractive!

[JAG]

'07 Aston Martin DBR9 GT1 = 620bhp +/-10bhp

10% bigger P1 restrictors = 60-70bhp

'08 P1 V12 = 680-690bhp starting point.

re. the Judd's, if they could put out 650bhp+ in qulifying/sprint trim last year, it seems for a 24hr race they were closer to 620bhp, therefore giving the 80-100bhp gap to the diesels Pescarolo often claimed.

[David L]

Originally Posted by AMT

I can shed some light on this, because I designed the monocoque and suspension for the T385. Initially, Robin Hamilton wanted a T70Mk3b adapted to take the Aston engine, but Eric convinced him that it would not be competitive a decade on. Eric left me to design a new tub, simple and cheap in construction, using as many existing parts as possible in the rest of the car. The tub didn't resemble the T600 (which I also worked on) at all. Frankly, I can't remember what existing parts from which models were used, but I seem to remember designing a new rear upright and front wishbones.

Thanks very much for clearing this up AMT..

It was Robin Hamilton that was widely quoted as saying that the T385 was a derivative of the T600..

Regards

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by AMT

I can shed some light on this, because I designed the monocoque and suspension for the T385. Initially, Robin Hamilton wanted a T70Mk3b adapted to take the Aston engine, but Eric convinced him that it would not be competitive a decade on. Eric left me to design a new tub, simple and cheap in construction, using as many existing parts as possible in the rest of the car. The tub didn't resemble the T600 (which I also worked on) at all. Frankly, I can't remember what existing parts from which models were used, but I seem to remember designing a new rear upright and front wishbones.

One of the greatest things of all about Tenths is that it never fails to surprise you in who might pop out of the woodwork and post something like this..............

That's brilliant, thanks for taking the time to explain, AMT (I suspect you have quite a few fascinating and 'undocumented' stories to tell)!

..........still doesn't quite explain (for me) the conversation I referred to in an earlier post, but I can at least dismiss it now as being 'factually' off beam!

[knighty]

Originally Posted by JAG

'07 Aston Martin DBR9 GT1 = 620bhp +/-10bhp

10% bigger P1 restrictors = 60-70bhp

'08 P1 V12 = 680-690bhp starting point.

re. the Judd's, if they could put out 650bhp+ in qulifying/sprint trim last year, it seems for a 24hr race they were closer to 620bhp, therefore giving the 80-100bhp gap to the diesels Pescarolo often claimed.

Yup, just worked it out along the same lines too, the data I have below is from race engine magazine when they interviewed Jason Hill about the Prodrive GT1 aston engine project.

2005 AM V12 with 2 x 31.2mm restrictors = 1530mm area = 585bhp

2006 AM V12 with 2 x 30.8mm restrictors = 1490mm area = 570bhp

2007 AM V12 with 2 x 30.7mm restrictors = 1480mm area = 570bhp

Divide the power by the restrictor area and I get an average ratio of 0.383……therefore for 2008 P1 engine using a homologated GT1 base motor…...

2 x 33.7 P1 homologated GT1 restrictors = 1784mm = 683bhp

2 x 34mm P1 homologated GT1 restrictors (Aircon) = 1816mm = 695bhp

So yes, I now agree!......as the P1 engine will be spinning faster that in its GT1 guise I'd also say it was good for just under 700bhp

If I was Mr Judd I'd be pretty peeved looking at those numbers :-(

[gwyllion]

Imagine what you can do with a decent engine The Maserati engine produces 756 bhp unrestricted (MC12 Corsa)

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by knighty

Yup, just worked it out along the same lines too, the data I have below is from race engine magazine when they interviewed Jason Hill about the Prodrive GT1 aston engine project.

2005 AM V12 with 2 x 31.2mm restrictors = 1530mm area = 585bhp

2006 AM V12 with 2 x 30.8mm restrictors = 1490mm area = 570bhp

2007 AM V12 with 2 x 30.7mm restrictors = 1480mm area = 570bhp

Divide the power by the restrictor area and I get an average ratio of 0.383……therefore for 2008 P1 engine using a homologated GT1 base motor…...

2 x 33.7 P1 homologated GT1 restrictors = 1784mm = 683bhp

2 x 34mm P1 homologated GT1 restrictors (Aircon) = 1816mm = 695bhp

So yes, I now agree!......as the P1 engine will be spinning faster that in its GT1 guise I'd also say it was good for just under 700bhp

If I was Mr Judd I'd be pretty peeved looking at those numbers :-(

Good post, thanks for working it all out!

And those figures make fascinating reading.........bring it on!!