Question : Was the Black/Yellow quarted flag used in UK Circuit (Car) Racing

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Indeed LOL
Its not us its the others LOL

I guess thats the root of the problem. I blame the bigger boys (BTCC etc)

I do wonder however about the sanity of club racers who spend £xxx pounds on entry fees for a 10 lap race and then seem content to spend 3-4 laps behind the safety car for a single car in the gravel trap when, if they all slowed down for about 2-300 metres per lap whilst the incident is dealt with, they could get about 9.5 laps for their money.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by exflagman

I guess thats the root of the problem. I blame the bigger boys (BTCC etc)

I do wonder however about the sanity of club racers who spend £xxx pounds on entry fees for a 10 lap race and then seem content to spend 3-4 laps behind the safety car for a single car in the gravel trap when, if they all slowed down for about 2-300 metres per lap whilst the incident is dealt with, they could get about 9.5 laps for their money.

Excellent point that I will put to our race club....nice one thanks

[warweezil]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

How much leeway would there be in the speed rule? I ask because of the following..

How would a clubbie driver know they are doing exactly the required speed?

For instance, I have a good friend who races a Locost - his dashboard consists of an oil pressure gauge, a gear change light and a very large rev counter......no speedo in sight at all.

In our car the speedo works - but not very well - at around 40mph it hunts continually between 30mph and 60mph - it is caused by worn gearing in the connection to the gearbox....it would require a new gearbox to fix..in fact Iam likely to disconnect it...

One answer might be a GPS Data Logging system, but again very pricey, and also some Series/Championships don't allow it.

A speed limiter is actually quite an expensive bit of kit, and generally works off an ECU which quite a lot of cars don't have...

There are GPS secondary speedos available on ebay (new) for around £80, which would seem to be a reasonable price...... Just an observation.

I get a little fed up with seeing our lunch break reduced to almost nothing by stoppages etc because so many drivers feel that reducing speed through a yellow sector by very little is sufficient to allow us to work trackside leading those in charge to feel they have no option but to deploy SC or have a race stop. As others have said, if drivers would back off and allow us to work safely, events would run better, with less Safety Car interventions/stoppages, everyone would be happy.

The solutions are out there - if only those running the sport have the will to use them. Personally Id like to see a requirement that ALL drivers spend a weekend on the bank once every 2 - 3 years as a condition of thier comp licence.. or at least as part of the conditions to obtain one in the first place..... just so that they can see things from our side... and understand what we need from them in order to do our job (looking after them) in reasonable safety

Just My Opinion.... YMMV

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by warweezil

There are GPS secondary speedos available on ebay (new) for around £80, which would seem to be a reasonable price...... Just an observation.

Interesting thanks I'll take a look

Originally Posted by warweezil

I get a little fed up with seeing our lunch break reduced to almost nothing by stoppages etc because so many drivers feel that reducing speed through a yellow sector by very little is sufficient to allow us to work trackside. As others have said, if drivers would back off and allow us to work safely, events would run better, with less Safety Car interventions/stoppages, everyone would be happy.

The solutions are out there - if only those running the sport have the will to use them. Personally Id like to see a requirement that ALL drivers spend a weekend on the bank once every 2 years as a condition of thier comp licence.. just so that they can see things from our side...

Nina and I wholeheartedly agree with both your observations - particularly the requirement to be out on bank with us. More than anything it allows us to say it as it is. Guess in this country it would only be those holding an MSA licence as we have no control over FIA. Bet you a bottom dollar even if this were to be brought in there would be "exceptions" like BTCC drivers or other high flyers (pun intended).

[warweezil]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Interesting thanks I'll take a look

PM'd you a link to the one I saw on ebay

Thanks for the positive comments. I know many drivers are sensible - and I guess Drivers who also Marshal ( or is that Marshals that Drive?) will be especially sensible about "incident areas", the issue will always be about educating and/or dealing with the hot heads.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by warweezil

The solutions are out there - if only those running the sport have the will to use them. Personally Id like to see a requirement that ALL drivers spend a weekend on the bank once every 2 - 3 years as a condition of thier comp licence.. or at least as part of the conditions to obtain one in the first place..... just so that they can see things from our side... and understand what we need from them in order to do our job (looking after them) in reasonable safety

Just My Opinion.... YMMV

Would agree entirely - also liked scheme that AMOC had a few years ago whereby those guilty of yellow flag offences (or at least those looking for a licence upgrade) where forced to spend a day marshalling as pennance before they where allowed to race again for the club.

The sight of a driver having to explain to us on post the reason why they where there seemed to have salutory effect on the ones I met!

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Would agree entirely - also liked scheme that AMOC had a few years ago whereby those guilty of yellow flag offences (or at least those looking for a licence upgrade) where forced to spend a day marshalling as pennance before they where allowed to race again for the club.

The sight of a driver having to explain to us on post the reason why they where there seemed to have salutory effect on the ones I met!

Should be part of the MSA rules, not just AMOC. It is a nice idea...

Can't see it ever happening though....

[warweezil]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Would agree entirely - also liked scheme that AMOC had a few years ago whereby those guilty of yellow flag offences (or at least those looking for a licence upgrade) where forced to spend a day marshalling as pennance before they where allowed to race again for the club.

The sight of a driver having to explain to us on post the reason why they where there seemed to have salutory effect on the ones I met!

Perfect! The simplest ideas are often the most effective...

[dusty]

Perhaps the reverse would also be a good idea? A marshal in a race car doing a few laps! It might open some peoples eyes a bit to what you can and cannot see from trackside! I think it would be suprising how easy it is to miss a flag! ( not at the speed I would be driving at, obviously! I am the one with flies on the back of my helmet and a few slightly bruised bugs on the numberplate!)

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by dusty

Perhaps the reverse would also be a good idea? A marshal in a race car doing a few laps! It might open some peoples eyes a bit to what you can and cannot see from trackside! I think it would be suprising how easy it is to miss a flag!

On that note I had a moment at Silverstone during my practice last Saturday, half way along the new pit straight as I'd just overtaken a car I noticed a green flag held out. I was ****ting myself expecting a visit to the CoC until I remembered it was the first lap and they were at every post.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by dusty

Perhaps the reverse would also be a good idea? A marshal in a race car doing a few laps! It might open some peoples eyes a bit to what you can and cannot see from trackside!

We used to do something along these lines at the Oulton Park marshals training days many years ago.

Trainee marshals on post with instructors - experienced flag marshals driving round in their road cars in simulated (allegedly 'scripted') 'races' with OP instructors in some of the school escorts acting as the fast guys. Seemed to work well, I think it only fell out of favour after one of the instructors, 'dropped it' at Knicker Brook and dinged the escort .

I certainly learned quite a lot about what visibilty there was of the various flag points and we even managed to get one or two moved as a result.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

On that note I had a moment at Silverstone during my practice last Saturday, half way along the new pit straight as I'd just overtaken a car I noticed a green flag held out. I was ****ting myself expecting a visit to the CoC until I remembered it was the first lap and they were at every post.

That seemed to confuse Martin and David in practice at Valencia. Apparently some circuits show the green flag on every post at the start to indicate there are no yellows out! Personally I thought all circuits displayed them so that the drivers would become aware of where the posts are...

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Woolley

That seemed to confuse Martin and David in practice at Valencia. Apparently some circuits show the green flag on every post at the start to indicate there are no yellows out! Personally I thought all circuits displayed them so that the drivers would become aware of where the posts are...

Never understood why they need to show a green at all posts round the circuit after a SC restart - flag posts tend not to move during an incident unless it was an extremely large incident. Maybe its just that race drivers have very poor memory spans. If you are showing a green then its makes it difficult to show a blue if it becomes necessary, especially if you are flagging alone.

[b1gfrenchy]

Originally Posted by S.Moss

The incident aside, i've never seen the batternberg flag used in karting either in 13 years..

I was in a race at Rissington in about 2002 when this flag was definately used to very good effect & seemed to be understood by all of us as we all slowed safely & went around single file behind the leader for at least 2 laps

[mark_l]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

It was a meeting run by the 75MC and I was one of the Clerks.
The first nine or ten cars came out of the Devils Elbow saw the flag on the start line and braked down to 50 mph, the next car round, found the track full of cars considerably slower than himself, got onto the grass in avoidance, hit the barrier opposite Race Control and if my memory serves me correctly snapped his neck.

It was Nic Fairman in a Caterham race on 3rd June 2001. Nic had no where really to go apart from taking to the grass as the track was effectively blocked by the slower cars being on the racing line 2 abreast but doing half the speed of Nic.

Once he got on to the grass he had no reduction in speed until impact, he had half spun the car on the grass putting himself on the side of the tyre barrier (which if memory is correct were the large truck tyres near post 1)

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Never understood why they need to show a green at all posts round the circuit after a SC restart

Agreed. Apart from that, it's something you have to put down if you then need to show a yellow or a blue - and just after a restart when they're all in a heap you're more likely going to need a blue.

I also don't get the 'no overtaking until the line/SC line' nonsense. Green means it's safe to race, so get on with it. You don't need to wait on a rolling start, so why on a rolling restart?

[terence]

One reason is possibly to give the SC a bit of time to get off circuit?

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I also don't get the 'no overtaking until the line/SC line' nonsense. Green means it's safe to race, so get on with it. You don't need to wait on a rolling start, so why on a rolling restart?

I would guess that it is safety orientated. If racing was allowed immediately the circuit went green then you can bet that some drivers won't see it, might be that they are between posts, have eyeline blocked, or maybe looking at the temp gauge in the cockpit, or even admiring the pretty girls/handsome guys on the marshals posts LOL. What would happen is some would start racing, and others wouldn't. Bet you someone would get collected up the chuff.

With the present system the message is more likely to get through, and everyone know the precise moment they are allowed to start racing again. Hopefully avoiding these problems. Of course, real world, we all know there are always one or two drivers caught napping even then!

Oh, and of course, as the previous post says, letting the safety car get out of the way. Nina would be livid if she was beaten by that....LOL

Thats just a theory....not sure if that is why the rules are as is?

[Woolley]

You'd hope the SC was allowed to get out of the way before they went green!

Yellow flags and SC boards coming in should be enough clue. It used to work this way before F1 got involved and tried to reinvent the wheel.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

Oh, and of course, as the previous post says, letting the safety car get out of the way. Nina would be livid if she was beaten by that....LOL

Depends who is driving the Safety Car - I recall a race at Oulton Park when the Derek Walker was driving the safety car - best I have ever seen - slowed everyone right down past the incident in such a way that no-one managed to hit each other, then back up to speed round the rest of the lap to keep the tyres up to temperature. On the in lap he gradually ramped the it up round the lap to a speed that everyone could just about keep up.
And what was he driving - not something powerful and exotic like the bigger boys feel thay have to use to boost their egos, just his Peugeot diesel estate that he uses as a tow-car for his formula junior

[terence]

Originally Posted by Woolley

You'd hope the SC was allowed to get out of the way before they went green!
.

Glad some one is paying attention.