[DTM] How do you like the DTM ???

[Atle Gulbrandsen]

Why can't the motorsport community cooperate better?

Let's have the same cars in the DTM, Super GT, Grand Am, FIA GT1 etc.

Or instead of making the DTM a GT-championship, let it be a proper Touring Car championship with the same regulations as in the WTCC etc.

There are way too many championships, classes and regulations...

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by Atle Gulbrandsen

Why can't the motorsport community cooperate better?

Let's have the same cars in the DTM, Super GT, Grand Am, FIA GT1 etc.

Different championships - different teams with different abilities. So, they need different cars. No Japan team race in Europe, and no European team race in Japan, so why they must use the same car?

Originally Posted by Atle Gulbrandsen

Or instead of making the DTM a GT-championship, let it be a proper Touring Car championship with the same regulations as in the WTCC etc.

DTM has most powerful and spectacular car in Europe, so they will never race the same cars as WTCC. DTC race S2000 cars.

[Parramatta_Power]

DTM is the Top Touring Car category in my opinion. I kind of wish there was a larger field of vehicles(would increase action for sure). The vehicles are vehemently spetacular. No secret the Aerodynamic upgrades on the Chasis of the Audi/Mercedes makes the Series stand out, like the Japanese Super GT.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Au contraire, if you ask me. The aerodynamic rubbish is what makes DTM as bad as it is (well, it's part of it. Team orders doesn't help either). The V8's are to me by far the best touring cars today, nearly as good as Super Touring in its heyday. Never cared much for Super GT either, actually.

[Yannick]

DTM used to be better the 1st time the series was around - before its rebirth in 2000.
The Dijon race in 2009 was spectacular, however. Unfortunately, the track won't be able to host the event anymore for financial reasons.

[NaBUru38]

According to what I read, the awsome-looking bodykit (I agree with Parramatta) makes cars easy to drive and therefore less interesting to see than overweight, overpowered, underdownforced such as Nascar Cup and V8SA.

[Speed-King]

The problem is not so much that they are easy to drive, but that they become nearly impossible to drive when one car follows another one closely as the turbulences created by the car in front totally ruin the effectifity of the aero-devices on the car that's following...

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

The problem is not so much that they are easy to drive, but that they become nearly impossible to drive when one car follows another one closely as the turbulences created by the car in front totally ruin the effectifity of the aero-devices on the car that's following...

+ if cars have slightly contact spoilers and wings get damaged and cars are no longer competitive.


If DTM would have cars (less dependent on aero parts; cars stronger in general) and teams (private and semi-factory teams instead of full factory teams; teams sponsored by external sponsors instead of manufacturers) like in V8 Supercars I am sure DTM would be a very strong series which blows away WTCC and BTCC.

[NaBUru38]

Argentine TC2000 cars have a great balance of mean looks and strength. Also, I remember one Mégane running at Paraná with no front body at all yet keeping at pace with the rest the whole race...s (sprint and feature - the driver damaged the front end twice in the same day).

[juicy sushi]

Originally Posted by FIRE

+ if cars have slightly contact spoilers and wings get damaged and cars are no longer competitive.


If DTM would have cars (less dependent on aero parts; cars stronger in general) and teams (private and semi-factory teams instead of full factory teams; teams sponsored by external sponsors instead of manufacturers) like in V8 Supercars I am sure DTM would be a very strong series which blows away WTCC and BTCC.

I can agree with that. The sensitive and fragile aerodynamics, with the team orders really removes the close racing which is a key part of the appeal of touring cars.

The basic technical package of the DTM sounds like a sure fire winner, but the execution has been a real drag, as the potential fo the series just isn't being reached.

[Valenok]

Originally Posted by FIRE

+ if cars have slightly contact spoilers and wings get damaged and cars are no longer competitive.

And their suspension cant be considered strong enough - remember Mugello 2007, when Green broke his suspension without any help aside. It's a shame for touring car.

[Jamesy-18]

I think overall It's a good series. Nowhere near as good as BTCC in terms of action mind you.

[Woolley]

I mainly like it to be on a TV channel I have. Missed the Motors coverage last year as the coverage headed to somewhere I'd have to pay even more for.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Valenok

And their suspension cant be considered strong enough - remember Mugello 2007, when Green broke his suspension without any help aside. It's a shame for touring car.

Ok, you had to go back 3 years to find 1 instance of a suspension failing without clear contact. Are you aware of the fact that all things are not created equal and sometimes things happen to leave the factory with a manufacturing fault that might not be visible?

[Valenok]

In Barcelona, also in 2007, one Audi (I dont remember which) broke its suspension after usual light contact.
I think, if it were more close fight, we'll see more such cases.

[FIRE]

According Japanese magazine this is ITR's proposal for 2011:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...93#post2612693

[Speed-King]

Tourenwagen of Tomorrow.

As I already wrote on the sportscar board, I like it. As I understand it, added on aero-pieces will only be allowed on thebumpers and fenders and below a certain line... So no more winglets behind the wheels. Dare I say it, but this actually sounds really sensible.

Edit: Might be worng there, depending on where the "design line" will be

[juicy sushi]

It's an interesting idea, although I don't know if it will get rid of the problems with the racing (since aero development is still possible, and we can still get the races ruined through team orders). Still, it has potential.

I was wondering though, Speed-King, how open do you think German race fans would be to the Superstars concept from Italy? It's mainly featuring German cars, so it could be pretty easy to import as a concept.

[Japanese Samurai]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Tourenwagen of Tomorrow.

As I already wrote on the sportscar board, I like it. As I understand it, added on aero-pieces will only be allowed on thebumpers and fenders and below a certain line... So no more winglets behind the wheels. Dare I say it, but this actually sounds really sensible.

Edit: Might be worng there, depending on where the "design line" will be

According to the illustration of AUTOSPORT(of Japan), feature aero parts of the DTM car seems to be maintained.

[codename_47]

DTM, boring racing, farrrr too obsessed with pitstops (in a touring car race, who the hell wants to see pitstops? Cars racing on track is where the action is, not via pitlane!) and cars that, look nice but...well, they're not touring cars really are they.
It's not racing.

WTCC, Getting there, action wise, but an insistance to race on longer tracks not suited to touring cars and a terrible manufacturer lead team order obsession means races aren't usually races, just a manufacturer shuffling its cars into a pre-determined order depending on what is best for the championship.
It's not racing.

BTCC: It's racing, Jim. And not only as we know it, but as we like it Drivers not afraid to put a move on those in front, not having to worry about pitstops or their team telling them to relinquish position for the championship.
One or two drivers sometimes take it a bit too far, but better a lot of close racing with the occasional accident than no close racing at all!

I would probably put STCC/DTC as second to the BTCC, action wise, but aside from the smallest of the small snippets I've seen of it, there really is no coverage outside their home countries

And that is the Touring Car world according to me. No, I don't care that you didn't ask

Maybe with the discussed tie up with JGTC, the problem is that the DTM doesn't see itself as a touring car series at all, just a sprint sportscar series.
They don't care about the lack of racing in their series because they have an eye on becoming an endurance series where, well, there's NEVER any wheel to wheel racing...

[Speed-King]

I was wondering though, Speed-King, how open do you think German race fans would be to the Superstars concept from Italy? It's mainly featuring German cars, so it could be pretty easy to import as a concept.

Superstars will race this summer at Hockenheim, and I somehow doubt that the spectator numbers will reach four digit figures - especially seeing that it's on the same weekend as the 24hours of Le Mans; so unless Le Mans is already pretty much decided by sunrise a lot of people that would be otherwise interested will skip the Superstars races.

But that's probably besides the point: A lot of DTM's popularity comes from the massive marketing efforts by Audi and MB, so that Superstars one-off is not really a good tool to gauge interest or acceptance for this ruleset. I think people here would indeed accept the - perhaps slightly souped up - Superstars rules for DTM, too bad it will never happen.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by codename_47

I would probably put STCC/DTC as second to the BTCC, action wise, but aside from the smallest of the small snippets I've seen of it, there really is no coverage outside their home countries

BTCC is not doing better.

[FIRE]

On TcT there's an interview with Ekstrom about his view on the 2011 rules.

[Alfa Fan]

Originally Posted by FIRE

BTCC is not doing better.

Its shown in the US and Canada like DTM!

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Ed - Forgot the Volvo S80 V8 of course, another car that could compete when heavily tuned even if the road car isn't "super" sporty.

Or how about the Volvo S60 in SPEED GT spec?



As for the DTM, make the cars stronger so they survive some fender benders without instantly breaking down and bring them back to the Green Hell. There, series just got a lot more exciting.

Originally Posted by codename_47

DTM, boring racing, farrrr too obsessed with pitstops (in a touring car race, who the hell wants to see pitstops? Cars racing on track is where the action is, not via pitlane!) and cars that, look nice but...well, they're not touring cars really are they.
It's not racing.

Completely agree about the pitstop obsession.

Originally Posted by codename_47

WTCC, Getting there, action wise, but an insistance to race on longer tracks not suited to touring cars and a terrible manufacturer lead team order obsession means races aren't usually races, just a manufacturer shuffling its cars into a pre-determined order depending on what is best for the championship.
It's not racing.

Sometimes longer tracks, that might not be ideal to touring cars, are better than short, tight & slow Mickey Mouse tracks. I'd take Spa-Franchorchamps any day over Oschersleben, for example.

Completely agree about the manufacturers though, but fingers crossed we'll see slightly less politics this season.

Originally Posted by codename_47

BTCC: It's racing, Jim. And not only as we know it, but as we like it Drivers not afraid to put a move on those in front, not having to worry about pitstops or their team telling them to relinquish position for the championship.
One or two drivers sometimes take it a bit too far, but better a lot of close racing with the occasional accident than no close racing at all!

There is a lot to like about the BTCC, isn't there? Great tracks (some of them absolutely fantastic) that are fast and flowing, pretty solid field of cars and usually good action on the track.

Only downside about the BTCC is that I can't see it live

Originally Posted by codename_47

I would probably put STCC/DTC as second to the BTCC, action wise, but aside from the smallest of the small snippets I've seen of it, there really is no coverage outside their home countries

Don't beat yourself over missing the STCC. While it has a solid field of cars, with lots of variety among car makes (something I really, really enjoy), it does suffer a bit from a lack of good race tracks which in turn hurts the spectacle. A Thruxton-like track would make absolute wonders for the STCC.