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8 Aug 2005, 18:46 (Ref:1546863)
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#76 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
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Chris
F1R recordings of these two chassis are 17/5/69 Monaco BT28-2 Beuttler 3/8/69 Brands BT28-2 Beuttler 13/9/69 CP BT28-2 Cole 9/11/69 Brands BT28-2 Beuttler (tends to discount "sold" possibility) 15/3/70 Snetterton BT28-2 Edwards 21/3/71 Brands BT28-20 Joy Just to confuse matters throughly 21/8/71 Oulton Ferreira in BT28-27 !!!! No recordings of BT28-20 in F3 book at all. RAP |
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8 Aug 2005, 19:20 (Ref:1546864)
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#77 | ||
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OldRacingCars.com
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In my experience, F1R tend to extrapolate a chassis number from actual sightingsw. So if, as an example, they see Bloggs in Chassis 21 at Oulton Park in May, they'll assign him to chassis 21 all season. If Bloggs actually crashed chassis 21 at Snetterton in June and drove chassis 32 for the rest of the season, F1R may not know that so their records will be wrong.
What we don't know is how many times in 1969 a F1R person actually saw a BT28-2 chassis plate on Beuttler's car. Adam may know - he often gave F1R this sort of information (but 1969 is probably well before his time). Allen |
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8 Aug 2005, 20:30 (Ref:1546865)
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#78 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Allen,
Yes, you are correct in relation to F2/F3000 In my time "recording" for them (largely from 1977) I sent Paul my lists for each meeting I attended. As you say he would then assume that following appearances by a driver/car were the same as my or Duncan's observations. I think the F3 Fact Books are slightly different. Paul didn't have enough data to attempt to "record" chassis numbers for each race. Chassis numbers only appear intermittently (certainly in the 72/73 one which I'm familiar with). I assume that if they appear intermittently that they are somebody's observations (unless they're gleaned from AU/MN) - probably usually Duncan. Of course typos can/do creep in. Duncan is/was very assiduous about recording what he saw, but occassionally he asked the team what the chassis number was, if he couldn't see it. All this probably doesn't help to clear the "muddy pool" much, but that was the modus operandi. |
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ADAM
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8 Aug 2005, 22:07 (Ref:1546866)
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#79 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 239
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I 100% agree with Adam's comments. The F1/F2 books do have the potential weakness cited by Allen but The F3 book only list chassis numbers infrequently (as my post indicates) and I have been told by Paul that they are actual "sightings" but of course are as open to human error as the rest of our activities!
Richard |
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9 Aug 2005, 09:09 (Ref:1546867)
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#80 | ||
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Veteran
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I'd have to say, based on considerable copy editing experience, that the F1/F2 books are blessed with more than their fair share of typos. It's not unusual for what is 742-15 at one race to be 732-15 at the next, and the text editing is decidedly dodgy. The information gathering may have been assiduous but I've always tried to double reference entries in these books with other information.
I do, however, take Richard's point about the F3s, as there is no extrapolation - however, that doesn't rule out typos, and in the context of Stow having BT28-20 and Edwards 28-2 in 1970, that's what the Crystal Palace entry in 1969 starts to look like. MN describes Stow's car [run for Cole] as brand new. BTW what was Beuttler doing that weekend, where and what with? Re Ferreira: Wasn't BT28-27 the car for Jean Blanc in 1970? Chris |
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__________________
'Some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you.'
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9 Aug 2005, 09:37 (Ref:1546868)
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#81 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 239
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"MN describes Stow's car [run for Cole] as brand new BTW what was Beuttler doing that weekend, where and what with?"
Chris Stow actually raced in a BT28 which Autosport descibes as "new". at Silverstone on 1st Sept (Aug Monday) in a F Libre race (3rd). Beuttler was at Albi 14th Sept , "Clarke-Mordaunt" per Autosport No special comments on car being different. Richard |
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10 Sep 2005, 18:23 (Ref:1546883)
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#82 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 38
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BT28-5, Ex Keith Jupp
Just thought I would let those interested in BT28 cars know I have sold the above car to a Dave Bankes of Los Angeles area. It is a basket case complete with MAE and Mk series gearbox. I have owned it and never run it for approx 16 years. I believe it has run only a couple of schools since importation to US after Jupps ownership. It may have had a BMC engine at one time according to motor mounts.This allows me to proceed with the restoration of BT2 and BT9 I still have. Keep up good work. Wayne Mitchell San Diego Area, Calif.
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14 Mar 2006, 11:39 (Ref:1547877)
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#83 | ||
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OldRacingCars.com
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This post marks the point at which the BT28 material in the giant Brabham BT28-29-30-35-36 thread was split out to create a separate BT28 thread.
Allen |
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17 Mar 2006, 22:04 (Ref:1551500)
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#84 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,184
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1969
BT28-1 ex BT21X 1969 Tim Schenken sold to 1970 Jacky Berenger, Casablanca next seen 2003 restored as BT21X BT28-2 (see #20) 1969 Mike Beuttler (used by Cole at CP 13/9/69) 1970 Jim Edwards, for F3 1971 José Ferreira in F3 1972 Glen Hyatt in F4 BT28-3 1969 Jean-Pieere Cassegrain BT28-4 Ulf/Svensson/Conny Anderson Note. Ulf buys additional car BT28-5 Keith Jupp BT28-6 Keith Jupp Andy Sutcliffe (cart-wheeled thru Paddock) what remains are still with with Roger Hurst BT28-7 (see #17) Frank Williams/John Kendle –Richard Scott 1970 Peter Hull –(maybe #17) BT28-8 Petterson 1971-3 Tom Belso (see #35) BT28-9 1969 July 4th new to Sverrir Thorodsson 1971 Sandy Shephard to Stan Matthews 1972 Mo Harness BT28-10 New to Sweden Gustaf Diedan? BT28-11 Dr Erlich BT28-12 1969 August 8th new to Jeff Uren, took delivery & offered for sale immediately, but then used as a hire car. BT28-14 Bob Wollek Note. may not have been delivered, went to Mitchell? BT28-15 New to Sweden BT28-16 1969 Bev Bond, Tony Trimmer 1971 Brian McGuire 1973 Geoff Lambert BT28-17 up-rated to BT30 spec (see #7 maybe Peter Hull) Harry Stiller, later Kidsley and Squires as hill climb with 750cc BD BT28-18 1970 Alan Harvey 1971 Tony Huggett Nothing ‘till Fed Harris 1995 then to Steve Rees then to Gene Owen approx 1998 BT28-19 Dick James, Joe Trotter in NJ, USA BT28-20 (see #2) 1969 Beuttler replacement car used 2 races only then to Stowe 1970 Dick Barker (rented?) 1971 Mike Stow, for F Atlantic restored by John Glebe to 29/35 spec 1971 Alan Joy F3 WARNING this is where we have a number of claims to ownership all at once! 1972 Dick Barker 1972 Wadham-Smith F3 (& then offered for sale by Spencer Elton 2/3/72-?) 1973 11th Jan. for sale by Elton Motors as being ex Stow/Barker/Joy/Wadham-Smith now with Denis Lupton Australia BT28-21 Andy Sutcliffe, Lenham Hurst Racing to replace #6 1970 John Gillmeister and converted to BT29 spec. BT28-22 Colin Crang? Then to Luigi Battistello with Alfa engine? BT28-23 1969 Tim Schenken 1971 Keith Wright, for sale 3/6/1971 Sold by Straight Six to Steve Farrell for brother Chris. now with Robert Foster, Australia BT28-24 New to Italy BT28-25 1969 Team AIRO/Alan McGully debuts 1970 1971 Alan Jones 1974-5 Paul Butler & Evan Clements as Atlantic/Libre BT28-26 1970 Harry Stiller BT28-27 1970 Jurg Dubler, Switzerland, BT28-28 1970 France, Jean Blanc at Pau? BT28-29 BT28-30 1970 New to Sweden (Ulf Svensson or BT28-32?) BT28-31 1970 Rolf Grondhal BT28-32 1970 New to Sweden now Ian Rimmer 2005 BT28-33 1970 Torston Palm, (Troberg?) Sweden BT28-34 Stubbs BT28-35 1970 March 3rd Mike Beittler, at Snetterton (Tom Belso see #8) 1973 for sale as driven by R James BT28-36 BT28-37 BT28-38 1970 New to Italy BT28-39 For sale by Duke Soares 3/2/72 BT28-40 1970 Bob Wolleck BT28-41 1970 New to Italy BT28-42 Vic Preston – East Africa BT28-43 1970 New to Sweden Misc. 1969 Lars Ake Tejby (maybe Kendal’s) 1969 Jorgen Ellekaer & retained into 1970, maybe Belso car 1970 David Puley had a new car 1970 Sigi Hoffman (might be a ’69 car) Gerry Birrell to Ronalso Rossi 1971 Harry Reynolds. Barry Goulden to Sonny Eade 1971-2 BT28-59 in Europe 2005 is a fake chassis plate |
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17 Mar 2006, 22:21 (Ref:1551504)
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#85 | ||
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Veteran
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Well I hope that is a reasonable summary of what has been said so far, the only other thing I can add from Autosport is that in the issue dated August 18th Natalie Goodwin is reported as cancelling her order for two BT28's.
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18 Mar 2006, 04:14 (Ref:1551646)
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#86 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
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I think that Dick Barker sold his BT28 by the end of 1970. A search of F2Rshows just 3 results;
9-05-1970 Castle Combe Lombank Trophy, BT28 Ford Lucas, 4th 17-5-1970 Cadwell Park, Lombank Trophy, BT28 Ford Lucas 2nd ?-05-1970 Mallory F Libre Race, BT28 Ford Lucas, 1st 1971 and Barker is mentioned only twice, April 12th Mallory, Alexis Mk18B, d.n.a. August 21st Oulton F3, Alexis Mk20 d.n.a. & here is the programme for Mallory 1972. 
Last edited by John Turner; 23 Mar 2006 at 08:57. |
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18 Mar 2006, 06:44 (Ref:1551665)
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#87 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Andrew ,
However F1R record the chassis as BT28-20 and also at Oulton pk a few weeks later , and again 29-5-72 at the Greater London Trophy race at Crystal Palace , all 3 times as BT28-20 . Possibly as per our phone conversation today it is BT29-20 wearing BT28-20 chassis plate , but I would not like to believe 3 seperate recordings of the chassis plate are incorrect. Bryan. |
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19 Mar 2006, 22:16 (Ref:1553099)
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#88 | ||
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Veteran
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Yes I accept that the reports are unlikely to be wrong three times, also
I think its accepted that most reporters around that time based their reports on chassis numbers not on official entry lists but on eye-balling the plate. So its not a typo. So either he was in the 28 or the 29 carried the 28 plate. To recap the chain of ownership for BT28-20 is, Barker '70, Joy '71, Wadham-Smith '72, for sale by Elton 11-1-73 and to Australia in '74? A/S reports Barker buying the BT29 27-1-72 A/S has a for sale ad by Barker for his BT29 on 5-4-73 before I nip over to the BT29 thread, Joy had a cracker of a year in '71 Alan Joy BT28, 1971 21st March, 12th 2nd May, DNS 16th May, DNA 17th July, DNQ 1st Aug, DNA 15th Aug, DNS 21st Aug, DNS 22nd Aug, 11th 26th Sept, DNA 3rd Oct ,DNA 9th Oct, DNA |
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22 Mar 2006, 04:03 (Ref:1556963)
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#89 | ||
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Veteran
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re 1971
MN has Mike Stow 11th March ’71 p.6 in ‘very slow F Atlantic BT28/35' 4 weeks later Joy is out in his F3 BT28 as reported by MN 22nd April MN 6th May has Ferrera out in an F3 BT28. That seems to be 3 different BT28’s. Joy is almost certainly in BT28-20 Stow is unlikely to be #20 so must be BT28-2 Ferrera is unlikely to be in either of the above cars so that leaves BT28-35 |
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23 Mar 2006, 03:35 (Ref:1557996)
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#90 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Revised list for BT28-20
1969 Autosport Sept 25th for sale, 2 races only, win 1st time out. 450 pounds Loddonvale 5381 Mike Stow sells to Dick Barker 9-05-1970 Castle Combe Lombank Trophy, BT28 Ford Lucas, 4th 17-5-1970 Cadwell Park, Lombank Trophy, BT28 Ford Lucas 2nd ?-05-1970 Mallory F Libre Race, BT28 Ford Lucas, 1st 1970 17th Dec. for sale Bob Howlings 1971 25th March p.35 to Alan Joy Alan Joy 1971 21st March, 12th 2nd May, DNS 16th May, DNA 17th July, DNQ 1st Aug, DNA 15th Aug, DNS 21st Aug, DNS 22nd Aug, 11th 26th Sept, DNA 3rd Oct ,DNA 9th Oct, DNA 1971 7th A/S th October Joy offers the car for sale 1972 2nd March Spencer Elton for sale as ex Stow/Barker/Joy 1972 raced by Barker 1972 raced by Wadham Smith? Once only? dates? 1973 11th Jan. for sale by Elton Motors as es Stow/Barker/Joy/ Wadham-Smith 1973 5th April Barker advertises his BT29 for sale A/S p.64 1973 19th April Barker advertises his BT28 for sale A/S 1974 Advertised for sale by Low Cost Racing? |
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19 Apr 2006, 07:18 (Ref:1588352)
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#91 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 354
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Hill climb BT28s
BT28-12 Holbay 997 was used by G Hyatt, entered by Low Cost Racing Ltd, at Great Auclum in August 1972. At the same meeting BT28-17 1598cc was used by R Shellard - this car went to Paul Squires and Phil Kidsley, possibly by 1973.
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19 Apr 2006, 07:33 (Ref:1588362)
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#92 | |
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Veteran
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I have 28-12 as supplied to Willments.17 was the Harry Stiller,Richard Scott,Peter Hull, Shellard,Kidsley and Squires.Now I think with Tommy Reid in Ireland
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19 Apr 2006, 08:57 (Ref:1588428)
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#93 | ||
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Veteran
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In an ad in A/S Sept 1972 Glenn Hyatt is selling a BT28 described as
"ex Beuttler". I'd always thought that this was Beuttler's 1970 car [35] Having 12 as a second Beuttler car in 1969 is no bloody help at all... Chris |
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__________________
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19 Apr 2006, 22:51 (Ref:1589200)
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#94 | ||
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Veteran
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1969 Guards Trophy Brands Hatch. Mike Beuttler in the Clarke-Mordaunt BT28 (chassis number...? I wonder!)
 photo Gerald Swan Last edited by Andrew Fellowes; 19 Apr 2006 at 22:53. |
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20 Apr 2006, 00:08 (Ref:1589237)
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#95 | ||
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Veteran
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2001 Coys Auction 13th Jan. BT21X (ex Schenken etc.) listed as AM243
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21 Apr 2006, 10:05 (Ref:1590671)
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#96 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 239
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A few (hopefully helpfull) comments on Andrew's List-
1969 BT28-1 ex BT21X 1969 Tim Schenken sold to 1970 Jacky Berenger, Casablanca next seen 2003 restored as BT21X BT28-2 (see #20) 1969 Mike Beuttler (used by Cole at CP 13/9/69) 1970 Jim Edwards, for F3 1971 José Ferreira in F3 1972 Glen Hyatt in F4 BT28-3 1969 Jean-Pieere Cassegrain retained 1970 BT28-4 Ulf/Svensson/Conny Anderson Note. Ulf buys additional car BT28-5 Keith Jupp BT28-6 Keith Jupp Andy Sutcliffe (cart-wheeled thru Paddock) what remains are still with with Roger Hurst BT28-7 (see #17) Frank Williams/John Kendle –Richard Scott I think Kendall was #17 and my guess is that #7 went to Sweden where Pettersen, Svensson, Ellakar and Dieden all have cars by June so must be early chassis with Tejby adding another by the end of June 1970 Peter Hull –(maybe #17) BT28-8 Petterson 1971-3 Tom Belso (see #35) BT28-9 1969 July 4th new to Sverrir Thorodsson retained 1970 1971 Sandy Shephard to Stan Matthews 1972 Mo Harness BT28-10 New to Sweden Gustaf Diedan? BT28-11 Dr Erlich BT28-12 1969 August 8th new to Jeff Uren, took delivery & offered for sale immediately, but then used as a hire car. BT28-14 Bob Wollek Note. may not have been delivered, went to Mitchell? Wollek does not appear to have raced at BT28, Mitchell's car is unidentified but debuts July so numerically this seems about right BT28-15 New to Sweden BT28-16 1969 Bev Bond, Tony Trimmerthis car was entered by Race Cars International and retained 1970 when also driven by McInerney 1971 Brian McGuire 1973 Geoff Lambert BT28-17 up-rated to BT30 spec (see #7 maybe Peter Hull) Harry Stiller, later Kidsley and Squires as hill climb with 750cc BD no trace of Stiller in a BT28 in 1969. Formula 1 Register records Kendall in #17 9 Nov 69. Kendall first appears 10 Aug so this fits numerically. In 1970 F1R records Scott in #17 22 Aug. Kendall races up to 9 Aug, presumably in #17, then Scott's own car (#26) goes to Stiller and Scott takes over team-mate Kendalls car - source Autosport 3 Sept 70 BT28-18 1970 Alan Harvey debut 17 August 69 1971 Tony Huggett Nothing ‘till Fed Harris 1995 then to Steve Rees then to Gene Owen approx 1998 BT28-19 Dick James, Joe Trotter in NJ, USA BT28-20 (see #2) 1969 Beuttler replacement car used 2 races only then to Stowe 1970 Dick Barker (rented?) 1971 Mike Stow, for F Atlantic restored by John Glebe to 29/35 spec 1971 Alan Joy F3 WARNING this is where we have a number of claims to ownership all at once! 1972 Dick Barker 1972 Wadham-Smith F3 (& then offered for sale by Spencer Elton 2/3/72-?) 1973 11th Jan. for sale by Elton Motors as being ex Stow/Barker/Joy/Wadham-Smith now with Denis Lupton Australia BT28-21 Andy Sutcliffe, Lenham Hurst Racing to replace #6 1970 John Gillmeister and converted to BT29 spec. BT28-22 Colin Crang? debut 17 Nov 69. Autosport says Crang has new car by 13 Sept but "will not race it until his Merlyn FF is sold"Then to Luigi Battistello with Alfa engine? BT28-23 1969 Tim Schenken 1971 Keith Wright, for sale 3/6/1971 Sold by Straight Six to Steve Farrell for brother Chris. now with Robert Foster, Australia BT28-24 New to Italy BT28-25 1969 Team AIRO/Alan McGully debuts 1970 debut 9 Nov 69 1971 Alan Jones 1974-5 Paul Butler & Evan Clements as Atlantic/Libre BT28-26 1970 Harry Stiller Originally Scotts car - see Autosport 27 Aug which records Stiller having first race with ex-Scott car - see also comments on #17 BT28-27 1970 Jurg Dubler, Switzerland, BT28-28 1970 France, Jean Blanc at Pau? BT28-29 Cyd Williams per F1R 27 March, also driven during year by Natalie Goodwin (4 July) and Stiller (17 July) when Williams was injured BT28-30 1970 New to Sweden (Ulf Svensson or BT28-32?) BT28-31 1970 Rolf Grondhal BT28-32 1970 New to Sweden now Ian Rimmer 2005 BT28-33 1970 Torston Palm, (Troberg?) Sweden BT28-34 Stubbs BT28-35 1970 March 3rd Mike Beittler, at Snetterton (Tom Belso see #8) 1973 for sale as driven by R James BT28-36 BT28-37 BT28-38 per F1R 22 Aug 70 David Purley's car, retained 1971 then to Reg James per Chris Townsend 1970 New to Italy BT28-39 Gerry Birrell F1R 22 Aug 70. 1971 R Rossi per Autosport Ex Birrell For sale by Duke Soares 3/2/72 BT28-40 1970 Bob Wolleck write off per Autosport 20 Aug 70 BT28-41 1970 New to Italy BT28-42 Vic Preston – East Africa BT28-43 1970 New to Sweden Misc. 1969 Lars Ake Tejby (maybe Kendal’s) 1969 Jorgen Ellekaer & retained into 1970, maybe Belso car 1970 David Puley had a new car 1970 Sigi Hoffman (might be a ’69 car) Gerry Birrell to Ronalso Rossi 1971 Harry Reynolds. Barry Goulden to Sonny Eade 1971-2 BT28-59 in Europe 2005 is a fake chassis plate |
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21 Apr 2006, 10:20 (Ref:1590684)
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#97 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 397
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bt21x Wasnt this converted into a 4 wheel drive hillclimb car?
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21 Apr 2006, 10:32 (Ref:1590697)
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#98 | ||
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OldRacingCars.com
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I'm not at all sure that BT21X/1 did become BT29/1. Alternatively, it's distinctly possible that the BT21 hillclimb car was not actually based on the BT21X but on another BT21 frame that had BT21X-ish mods. Either way, BT29/1 and the hillclimb BT21X were not the same car.
Allen |
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21 Apr 2006, 22:34 (Ref:1591289)
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#99 | |||
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Quote:
Or have I lost the story line here? Which (or what) was Schenken's? Last edited by Andrew Fellowes; 21 Apr 2006 at 22:37. |
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22 Apr 2006, 05:22 (Ref:1591523)
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#100 | ||
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Veteran
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RAP many thanks,
I'll try again with 35 & 38 BT28-35 1970 March 3rd Mike Beuttler, at Snetterton (Tom Belso see #8) 1971 Jose Ferrera BT28-38 per F1R 22 Aug 70 David Purley's car, retained 1971 then to Reg James per Chris Townsend add 1972 M/N 22nd March Reg James in ex Purley 1973 for sale as driven by R. James |
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| Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| Brabham BT28-29-30-35-36 | Bryan Miller | Motorsport History | 534 | 15 Mar 2006 07:56 |
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