No more LMP1 coupes (sort of)... (merged)

[gwyllion]

Some ACO used Corvette as an example for their 2010 coupe. Perhaps in the future LMP1 coupes and GT1 can run in the same class.

[gwyllion]

Very limited press release of ACO in French: http://www.lemans.org/24heuresdumans...24h2007_fr.pdf

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Some ACO used Corvette as an example for their 2010 coupe. Perhaps in the future LMP1 coupes and GT1 can run in the same class.

I prefer LMP1 cars like the Bentley over this Corvette LMP1 example.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Some ACO used Corvette as an example for their 2010 coupe. Perhaps in the future LMP1 coupes and GT1 can run in the same class.

But the LMP1 coupes would still be running at the pace of current P1 cars, while GT1's are going to be simplified.

[JAG]

Seems people have missed the fact these new coupes can run alongside current P1's from 2008!!!!!!

Regs will be published in November.

[russ250575]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

ACO still plans to make LMP1 coupe exclusive from 2010 on. They also want the prototype to resemble road cars more, especially at the front of the car.

1 ) Why call them protoypes if they have to resemble a road car ?

2 ) Not to much of a problem for Audi / pug but where do creation/pesca etc go ? just pick a car of the high street and model themselves on that.

[bil588]

What road car is the Lola B08/60 meant to look like?

Dome, Courage, Radical, Pilbeam, Judd, AER, Zytek, Creation?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by bil588

What road car is the Lola B08/60 meant to look like?

Dome, Courage, Radical, Pilbeam, Judd, AER, Zytek, Creation?

LMP1 is for manufacturers, LMP2 for privateers.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by russ250575

1 ) Why call them protoypes if they have to resemble a road car ?

2 ) Not to much of a problem for Audi / pug but where do creation/pesca etc go ? just pick a car of the high street and model themselves on that.

1) Every car starts as a PROTOTYPE ,so why should they not look a little more like a road going car. They are prototype Sports Cars and Sports Cars are a road going car.

2) That is a very good question. Many things to be looked at there.


L.P.

[JAG]

It's about creating a platform were a manufactuer can stick it's family face on the car, i.e Corvette (hint, hint) IF they so wish.

Oreca and Lola both want to link up with a manufactuer, it's preferable for a manufactuer to stick it's face on a prototype rather than a simple badging operation.

If your not afiliated to a manufactuer I suppose you can do as you wish.

[Fogelhund]

These new rules sets are all rather silly. Let the cars evolve naturally, and let's keep costs down. I can't believe that making cars more GT like, will increase the popularity of the sport somehow.

What exactly are we talking about here anyway? How is the Audi R12 supposed to look like an A4? The grill, the emblem? Nothing more certainly. Nobody is going to confuse a new generation Prototype, with anything road going, that much is likely, and they won't look much more like road cars than they do now.

This is nothing more than a ruse, and an excuse to change for the sake of change.

[JAG]

Show the average guy on the street who's a car fan a picture of the Corvette coupe, they'll recognise it, show them a picture of the Cadilac LMP900, you'll get a blank expression.

Why say it's change for change's sake, current cars will have been around for 6 years, while P1's will constantly evolve in order to cut speeds, just like F1. We need more manufactuers in the P1 class, allowing alternative fuels is one step (which some people CONSTNANTLY moan about), giving cars a closer family resemblence is another step in the right direction.

The ACO clearly say they aren't interested in capping cost's in P1, it's a manufactuers playground, if privateers such as Pescaolo and Oreca wish to compete, that's upto them.

This is precisely why P2 cost's have to be capped, and why regs are staying unchanged in this class.

On the one hand people complain about P1 costs, a manufactuer's class, yet are willing to let Penske and Acura run wild in P2!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

Show the average guy on the street who's a car fan a picture of the Corvette coupe, they'll recognise it, show them a picture of the Cadilac LMP900, you'll get a blank expression.

Interesting example. A car with a Cadillac grill, and a Caddy emblem is going to get a blank expression!!!!!!!

Yet, THIS is to be made immediately recognizable?

It is completely infeasible to expect manufacturers to do much beyond a grill, emblem or logo for such a thing. They will not be more recognizable with these new regs, nor as recognizable as they were with GT1. There is no need to go closed cockpit only, allow some freedom and flexibility. If anything, mandate branding, such as on the BMW LMR, or the Grill on the Caddy, or the grill on the Mercedes CLK group. Besides, the ACO will leave enough holes (in err) in the rules, that someone is going to make a mockery of these proposals anyway.

Why say it's change for change's sake, current cars will have been around for 6 years, while P1's will constantly evolve in order to cut speeds, just like F1. We need more manufactuers in the P1 class, allowing alternative fuels is one step (which some people CONSTNANTLY moan about), giving cars a closer family resemblence is another step in the right direction.

So, what exactly is the reason to change the rules then? Will a manufacturer wish to get involved in 2008, knowing their car will be obsolete quickly? No, let's wait until these new rules are introduced... another waiting transition period... do they ever end? The cars will barely have more of a family resemblance now, and there is no reason to throw out the current cars, just mandate closer family resemblance, badging... whatever.

This is precisely why P2 cost's have to be capped, and why regs are staying unchanged in this class.

Cost cap's are not feasible, nor are they enforceable.

[JAG]

Cadilac did their best, it failed on both counts, speed/performance and recogonition.

An earlier example is the Audi R8R, it certainly looked closer to an Audi, but the solid, high nose wasn't efficient enough for Le Mans.

Both Audi and Peugeot let their road car designers tweek the race cars to achieve a greater family resemblence, but they haven't much to work with.

If the ACO mandate a sold, high nose, it allow manufactuers to fit a large grill and lght cluster without a performance penalty, a wider cockpit obviously closer relates to a road car compared to an open Audi or fighter cockpit 908.

Cleaning up the sides of the cars with fewer holes etc. gives the cars a cleaner road car look.

We're not expecting cars to look car X in a manufactuers lineup, more like a concept car, i..e. the R8 road car.


P1 regs would have due for a revamp in 2010 anyhow as speeds would be under the 3.20 mark by then. There's only so far you can go with performance penalities to slow the cars until a clean sheet design is required, as we see almost every other year in F1.

Teams can run their cars for another three and a half years, yet we know some of the Lola teams are eying up the new 2008 Lola coupe, while most other teams will be due a chassis change by 2011, more likely earlier.

Could the new regs put off a manufactuer for another year, possibly, but Bentley designed a new car in less than 12 months for one race, while other manufactuers usuasly build new cars every other year if competing at a high level., i,e Porsche with the RS Spyder.

2007 is the first year we've had two P1 manufactuers for a number of years, I don't believe manufactuers are lined up ready to jump in, in fact I think they're still assesing the differing fuels, and most will only be ready in 2009/1o.

[bil588]

scratch the Lister Pescarolo

"This LMP1 has many years of racing ahead of it."

http://www.listercars.co.uk/

[JAG]

How's it performing at Le Mans.........oh it's not there!

No disrespect to Lister, but I think the ACO wish to see their headline class with stronger foundations than Lister, Lavaggi etc.

This isn't club racing.

[bil588]

It hasn't even entered a race though...

[FIRE]

Any news about their new LMP1? According their website they test in June.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by bil588

It hasn't even entered a race though...

It's eligable to race today, like Rollcentre, it will also be eligible for a further three years, by which time it will not be competitive and due for an upgrade.

[russ250575]

didnt they get theres before Rollcentre aswell ? there very disappointing

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by russ250575

didnt they get theres before Rollcentre aswell ? there very disappointing

Lister will only use the Pescarolo body and tub. The other parts are inhouse developed (designer: Peter Elleray!).

[vorsprung]

Originally Posted by russ250575

didnt they get theres before Rollcentre aswell ? there very disappointing

Lister decided to use a Hewland gearbox instead of the standard Pesca X-Trac. Peter Elleray is designing the bellhousing, gearbox and rear suspension setup.

[duke_toaster]

I'm starting to think that the ACO are shooting themselves in the foot.

Aside from the point re. my view that when the DTM set foot in Brands all the drivers, mechanics and series organisers should be arrested under the trade descriptions act (Silhouttes are NOT touring cars!), the road car silhouettes will shaft the privateers and will make the cars look butt ugly and break a wall which in my view is as important as the separation of religion and state - the difference between a GT car and a Prototype.

The rules work now with 1 change - the LMP2 and LMP1 classes should be merged and be an LMP class. The current LMP2s, which would be called LMP(II), would have larger holes in their air restrictors. The LMP (II) cars would be faster on tighter tracks than the LMP (I) cars and vice versa. It would make it less confusing for fans - 1 sort of prototype. If it doesn't look like a road car, you know what class it is in

[Speed-King]

So, what exactly is the reason to change the rules then? Will a manufacturer wish to get involved in 2008, knowing their car will be obsolete quickly? No, let's wait until these new rules are introduced... another waiting transition period... do they ever end? The cars will barely have more of a family resemblance now, and there is no reason to throw out the current cars, just mandate closer family resemblance, badging... whatever.

I think I read somewhere (another thread here on 10/10s?) that the ACO will publish the Coupé-rules in november this year and the new coupés will be eligible from 2008 on. Don't know how they want to do the performance balancing, though...

Edit: it's even here on this thread. JAG wrote:

Seems people have missed the fact these new coupes can run alongside current P1's from 2008!!!!!!

Regs will be published in November.

[Fogelhund]

http://www.endurance-info.com/2007_L...CO_lmp2010.jpg

How nice, a flattened DP.