Petition for a Unified Series

[Lee Janotta]

The rich boys make up literally half the grid, Jay. This is not just another damn series, this is a pinaccle series, one that drivers make their whole careers in, not just a stopover as they're climbing the ladder. You never see this many pay drivers in any other pinaccle series! It's a sign of impending collapse!

The IRL insurrection started years before TG announced the IRL. Those first teams who defected would have been gone from CART anyhow because they couldn't afford it anymore.

And yes, TG _is_ showing his true colors, which is why we've got a great chance to topple him now.

And it's not Americans-only, dammit! Why does it have to be all or nothing with you? Things are more complex than that!

Maybe I'm a bit too idealistic, but how can you be so adoring of the status quo? Especially as the status quo keeps changing, how can you keep changing to always be in line with it?

[Jay]

It's not about the status quo, any business has to keep changing to be successful, especially one that's pretty much being raised from nothing. Cart has X resources to work with to build a series that is self-sustained. The goal is to be there in two years...perhaps three if more financing comes onboard. There's not a lot of room for radical change there. But, interest is being generated from manufacturers and sponsors. Of course, as were just past the major spending, and have barely begun the season, the figures look very poor. But, I think it is still way too early to throw in the towel for this series.

Of course with the month May, it's the IRL's month. I have to say, things don't look nearly as bad as they did at this time last year though. Can't wait til Milwaukee (though I dont think it'll be as good as Germany was).

With the Americans thing, I'm just not in favour of any kind of quota system, which is what many here seem to be implicating. I'd like the best 18-22 guys to be on the grid for Cart...realistically though it'll be the best 10-15, with the rest using some of their own financing to obtain a ride ahead of drivers with potentially more skill.

Looking down the current Cart grid, I don't think there are as many pay drivers as you think. Unless you consider finding a company that is willing to support you with their money to be a pay driver... some might, but I don't. As for guys bringing their own family funds...there's almost no way to know for sure, but I count 4 at most 6. There are a few more that might not be the best for their rides, but are there because an outside sponsor or investor wants them to be. Lavin, Lemarie and Vasser would be in this bunch.

[Jay]

An interesting article from Pook about the series development thus far: http://www.cart.com/News/Article.asp?ID=6044

You'll like this on AJ Allmendinger: "he's going to be in a Champ Car next year and he'll be quick straightaway."

That said, he says one or two things about telemetry in there that makes me wonder how much time he's actually spent with the engineers... he's a marketing/business man I guess.

[veeten]

Thank you, Liz.

It seems that some of our erstwhile members are using "fuzzy logic" as an reason/excuse for some of the things put upon this board, moreso for an idea of what they dream open wheel racing should be, rather than what it is or where it's going.

For some of them I'd refer them to an article in the Feb '95 issue of RACER magazine titled, "The Thirty Years War", which gives a more abt description of the timeline & events that led up to the inception of the IRL and as a prelude to the present situation we have today. It'll clear up some of those misconceptions, and help others to get a better handle on things, as well as giving some of us that were around during those times( both you & me, Liz... ) a little walk down memory lane. For some of us, it'll shatter a few myths along the way, and give one pause before blindly bowing down to 34th & Georgetown as the center of all things racing.

Either check online or go to your local library and ask for the issue of this magazine. A little knowledge helps...

[Jay]

I'm no historian, but is this a good overview?

http://www.netaxs.com/%7Egg1/race/cartirl.htm

[veeten]

It's a start, but the article mentioned earlier gives a mor larger detail to most of that. It's a great read...

[Dov]

Veeten....if I have to walk to my local library, I will, but I'm a lazy kinda guy. I'm having trouble finding this article you speak of....called "The Thirty Year(s) War" online. Does anybody have any suggestions?

P.S. Please, don't say go to the library.

[Jordi]

Specially for non US people, Veeten. We have absolutely no chance to get that article free...

[veeten]

Sorry guys, it looks like it's not available at RACER.com either.

You just might have to take that walk to the library after all, Dov.

It's RACER issue #34, February '95. If anyone has a scanner, please post it. It's a great read, trust me on that.

[Lee Janotta]

This page shows excerpts from the article.

http://racingstools.com/TheTruthFour.html

Really nothing I hadn't already read, though.

When you talk about open-wheel racing in the states, you're talking about two drastically different groups of fans, cogniscenti, etc. In a perfect world, we'd have two series with lots of crossover. In the real world, we either have to come to a compromise and stand together (as we did from '79 to '95), or fall apart (USAC vs. F5000/Can-Am pre-'79, and moreso, the current situation). Neither faction has enough clout to stand on it's own. CART is surviving by turning itself into F1 lite. I don't think that serves us.

I've been accused of favoring American drivers too much. Do the Spaniards not support Spanish drivers? Do the Brits not support their own, or the French, or the Germans, or Brazilians? Cripes, the French would be screaming their heads off if there were only two French drivers in their F3 series. And likewise it frustrates the hell out of me when our TALENT can't get any sort of opportunity in a series that's still half-run here.

I'll be overjoyed if A.J.'s kicking butts in Champcars next year... But it doesn't make up for the dozens who've gotten zero attention but are just as worthy. With no real scholarships or sponsorship in the feeder series, we've got one of the least merit-based driver development systems you'll find. EXCEPT in oval racing. _That's_ why our most talented drivers tend to come from there, it's the only place where they can race and advance without daddy's money or connections paying their way. A.J.'s really lucky PT took a shine to him, he'd never have gotten into Barber-Dodge without Tracy's support.

[Jay]

There's nothing wrong with favouring your own drivers, but there is something wrong with a series insisting on X number of drivers from a certain country...especially any kind of series that claims to be somewhat international.

The problem you mention with the lower levels is not common to most low level series. You need money to get a ride, and lots of it. Very few scholarships are given out, and even fewer outside of North America. Not many companies are willing to sponsor a driver in a junior series, as the exposure they get is so minimal. The difference between North America and Europe is that a lot of the drivers coming into Europe have sponsorship from companies in their home country. All we can do in North America is raise the level of competition in our series so that it attracts young drivers from around the world with sponsorship. And if you want Americans in there, there needs to be American companies willing to help out...so far there haven't been many.

[KC]

Dear God, who is promoting a quota for drivers? I thought it was about who is the fastest, no the most American.

Look, its easy to see that most American drivers get overlooked when it comes down to racing seats. Obviously Sam Hornish Jr. deserved a chance but never got one and when he did get his chance he made the most of it quickly.

Position yourself as the team owner. Racing is your career, its what you use to pay the bills and employ your crew. You have two good young talents at your disposal. One has his helmet in hand and a pickup with a shifter kart to his name. One has his helmet and check from Gigante for $6 million dollars. Both are equally fast. Either one is a good choice. Who would you take? Memo Gidley or Michel Jourdain Jr? Thats prety much a no brainer. Either one could be a future champ or a bust. But with one you get paid no matter what happens and your business gets to go racing for another year.

Did A.J. Foyt hire Shigeaki Hattori because he was a great driver? No. Its because he brings money and engines in his baggage to the team. Hattori is driving for Foyt because it makes the most sense business wise for A.J. Foyt Racing. I don't blame him. Its a business decision. Now Foyt was one of the first to claim that not enough Americans were in CART when he left but he had to succumb to the same financial logic as everyone else has. It takes a sponsored driver to race a full season. Very few Americans have any sponsorsship dollars and many foreign talents do.

No matter how much we want to sugar coat it or dream about it, racing is first a business. It must make money for it to exist unless you just have good money to throw after bad supporting it as a hobby.

[Lee Janotta]

Jesus effing Christ Jay, you're the only one who's suggested a quota in this discussion!!!

I'm just suggesting that a primary goal should be establishing a scholarship and proper feeder formulas to get promising drivers from the US, Canada, and even Mexico the opportunities they need! That's _all_!

Did I not vote for Emmo as being the best CART driver ever? Have I not ragged on Townsend Bell and Memo Gidley? I'm not _against_ overseas drivers, as long as they get their seats on merit. I'm just _for_ having more domestic drivers in a series that holds the vast majority of it's races on this continent!

Jeez, look how far the Japanese go to support their idiot drivers. If they produced anyone with talent, everyone else would be out of work.

[Jay]

You guys really seemed to be implying a quota system in this thread and others saying things like "We should have X number of American drivers.." That sounds like a quota system to me...

In thinking about it some more, there are a lot of reasons for hiring a driver, and skill on the track is only one of them. Marketability and the amount of money or sponsorship they bring are huge. hence why Danica Patrick is getting an easy ride up the ladder, while people like Jon Fogarty have a lot more trouble. Ideally the best drivers would be on the grid, but the bills have to be paid somehow. Most team owners are faced with take the pay driver, or not run a car at all.

[Lee Janotta]

Well, there's a difference between saying we "should", and writing a quota into the rules Jay. I'm just looking at it as a goal, not an ultimatum.

But the weak fields and the presence of so many pay drivers in both series is why I think _some_ form of reunification is inevitable if big-time open-wheel racing is to survive in the North American markets.

As for marketability... That holds true to some extent. But consider Bobby Rahal... Not traditionally marketable, but put him in a race car and stick the helmet on, and he got some great sponsorship deals (7-11, Budweiser and Miller... though Jim Trueman must get much of the credit for the first two).

[veeten]

That's because a lot of the better drivers & team managers/owners have a head for business, and realize that in the upper levels of the sport one definately has to.

As for the drivers, it's a matter of "return on investment" for those said sponsors, after all it is their money being put upon these people as a means of advertisment for their particular field of merchandise or service. It's not a matter of how well this driver does on a particular track, their driving skills, or their level of expertise. It has to do with wether he can place well in, if not win, races, as everybody does like a winner. Then there's other considerations such as appearances, speaking engagements, autograph signings and other Public Relations. It's the same around the world, as drivers are either supported by business contracts or have relations in racing that are well established/connected or former drivers in those particular types of racing.

Reunification isn't going to solve this either, as the driver pool in question will be reduced to one series but the present way of doing things will continue. Right now it's about the finances, not about talent, as far as teams are concerned.

[Lee Janotta]

Well, the talent pool will just be consolidated in a single series.

But yes, a lot _is_ about marketability. And I worry about CART's marketability with only 7 out of 18 drivers from the continent, two of whom are French Canadians, and no Americans in a position to get within the top 5 at any race.

Finding international sponsors is in many ways harder than finding domestic sponsors, because there aren't many companies that span the globe and have any interest in motorsports promotion, and what's more, their marketing departments are usually broken up by continent, region or country.

The one thing about sponsors that really suprises me is that the tobacco companies don't pay for sponsor space during the Mexican races. Likewise I'm suprised they don't do it when F1 goes to countries with no ad restrictions. It just doesn't make sense not to.

[Tailwind]

Sorry. Can't sign the petition. I don't want Indy back. I don't even pay attention to what happens there anymore. I have only been a fan of CART since the time of Emmo and Nigel. I remember watching the Indy 500 when I was a kid with A. J. Floyt and Gordon Johncock battling it out. My memories don't go back as far as some of you here on this forum.

North American Open Wheel racing was damaged in 1996. I'm not going to support that which caused the damage.

I have a lot of faith in Pook. He has done a remarkable job in the short time he has been in charge. The people that shape history have vision, proceed into the future unphased by their critics, they don't govern by commitee, and they don't quit when self appointed experts with incomplete knowledge of all the facts proclaim it can't be done. One thing that impresses me is that when he makes a mistake, he admitts it, learns from it, and moved on better informed.

I love this series more than any other sport. If I could, I would bring back a couple of 500 mile speedway races and build a permanent road course near Denver and can the street race. (I would also get some good TV commercials promoting Champ Car drivers.)

In 2004 the US economy will start an up-swing, baring a major world event. The world econmy will follow soon after. Sponsorship dollars will be more available as CART become increasingly stronger. This series will survive and prosper without Indy.



I know there are many of you here that don't agree with my view. I can live with that. Reguardless, I hope to meet up with any of you at a Champ Car race in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007...and we can tip back a few bottles of the beer sponsering the race and discuss the past, present, and future of this great series.





Sorry for the spelling errors. I didn't spell check it before I posted it.

[Fish_Flake]

No matter what all of us believes should happen, we can all agree on one thing: Indy cars are not going to make a return to the Springfield Mile anytime soon.

[veeten]

now, is that on the cars or on the course?...

If that's about the courses, remember that these races are also broadcasted to those same countries with the tobacco ad restrictions, so the companies choose not to have static displays of them upon the course. The cars are a different story, though.

[Snrub]

Back to the heart of this thread - How would one make this happen? What can CART sacrifice for the IRL? (other then taking the 'good stuff' like Indy) What would TG give up to work with CART. What makes anyone think TG wants to be apart of CART?

In terms of new American talent, I think some will be on the way. Amateur racing is having a real burst of popularity in the US.

[Liz]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
I've been accused of favoring American drivers too much. Do the Spaniards not support Spanish drivers? Do the Brits not support their own, or the French, or the Germans, or Brazilians? Cripes, the French would be screaming their heads off if there were only two French drivers in their F3 series. And likewise it frustrates the hell out of me when our TALENT can't get any sort of opportunity in a series that's still half-run here.

Leaving aside the French who are, ahem, unique characters, no other country save the USA has so many people who demand that their own countrymen make up the ENTIRE series and/or dominate it before they will give it their support. I wish I had a dime for every smug-faced American (from the Olympics to the dirt tracks) who has told me "Americans don't support anything Americans don't dominate!" This is the attitude that makes more cosmopolitan people wince.

As far as "getting any sort of opportunity" -- well if you read the New York Times in the last week or so, you can see what happens when you hire people solely because they fit some Quota and not because they meet ALL the requirements. American talent gets exactly the same "opportunity" as any other talent; it's up to them, just as it is to the Brazilian, Italian, German, French, Indian, Chinese and Martian talent, to make the most of that opportunity. It's a sad fact of life that we can't have everything we want or everything our own way simply by screaming "I want it now!" I'm not going to get hired as a journalist by shouting "I demand you fire that illiterate White Male American Jack Arute and hire ME!" no matter how much better I can write or how poorly I personally believe HE can.

The phrase "It's not fair" should be left behind when you pass the age of 10. Maximum.

[BlueStang]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
CART has great venues, though, and credibility the IRL just doesn't. Promoter IMG were nearly run out of town here when it was leaked that they were negotiating with the IRL! Clevelanders demanded CART, and I'm sure it's the same in many other cities.

It has been said that those negotiations were never serious, and that IMG was only talking to the IRL to get CART to do something they wanted (I forget what...probably involved $$$) and sign a contract.

If I were a Clevelander, it would not bother me if the IRL was running there. What WOULD have bothered me would have been turning the course into an oval, which was the IRL idea. I like oval races, BUT Cleveland is a good course, IMHO, so I don't see any reason to change it to an oval.

I am guessing that was what had Clevelanders in arms...not the league, but the possible change to the course it would have involved.

[BlueStang]

Originally posted by Jay
Yes! I'd much rather have F1-lite than the IRL... Clearly that's what some here want - a series with more Americans in it, more wheel to wheel action, more crashes, the Indy 500, etc etc. The series you want is already there, so I don't see why you hang around here.

The series you want...F1...is also already there. Why re-invent the wheel?? Why settle for "F1 Lite" when you can have the real thing??

[Jay]

Cart isn't F1 though, and shouldn't be. Cart races on a lot of courses F1 doesn't, is extremely fan friendly, should be much much more cost effective for everyone involved, and produce some of the best open-wheel road racing of the pro-series. We should probably have a few (but not too many) ovals for some variety. If every few years one of our guys heads to F1 to become a F1 super star, great!