Montoya deserved a 10s Stop-Go

[eatapc]

I'm all for a strict enforcement of the rules, but it's still unclear how Montoya broke a rule. Like Jay, I'm waiting for some official explanation. David Coulthard is the latest to come right out and say that the stewards made a bad call. I have a feeling that Max or Charlie Whiting or someone high up told the stewards not to tolerate any nonsense, and they overreacted.

Dr. Austin's interpretation of the FIA rules (no swerving -- not even once) is logical, and in keeping with a strict interpretation of the words, but somewhat beside the point -- or at least the subject of a different debate. For several years the rule has been interpretted differently by both stewards and drivers. All the drivers know that they're allowed one blocking maneuver. Schumacher used his one move, found himself on a bad line, and -- unlike Rubens two weeks ago -- stayed on the bad line, where he encountered too much understeer to keep him clear of Montoya.

He took a chance. He made a mistake. I remember Montoya skidding off the track under heavy braking while trying to hold off Shumacher last year (costing Schumacher several positions). It happens to the best.

[Dr. Austin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by eatapc

"All the drivers know that they're allowed one blocking maneuver."

Maybe it might be better to say that one move is tolerated in spite of rules that prohibit it. KIf 'One move" is legal, someone please provide a link to prove it. I still say it is a fairy tale.





"I remember Montoya skidding off the track under heavy braking while trying to hold off Shumacher last year.'

And to this day he is vilified for it. Where are those people when Schumacher does the exact same thing? I guess it is true that Schumacher has his own set of rules.

[Peter Mallett]

The problem here is that TGF was more than reasonable in his response to questions and JPM agreed with him. Now I don't recall JPM getting uptight about the "chop" but everybody else seems to think it's not racing. Sorry but if the FIA allows it then anybody can do it (and they do).

TGF made a mistake and didn't deny it so for once why not give him that credit.

The penalty? Should never have been given but as in all sports the ref's decision is final and right or wrong we all have to accept it.

More credit should go to both drivers for getting from the back to somewhere near the front with very little outside assistance from retirees.

[Splatz the Cow]

I've been reading all your comments on this one, and I was just wondering, what happens if the other driver (M.Schumacher in this case) does not have any damage that requires a pitstop? Does Montoya still recieve a penalty of any sort?

Would the stewards care if it were a Minardi or Arrows involved with Montoya and not a front running team?

Was it because it's the first lap?

Or the first corner of the first lap?


How the *******G-HELL did Ralf go from Melborne Zero to Sepang Hero, and not recieve a carryover penalty of some sort for the fARSE that he created at Albert Park.

F1 rules, yeah....!
Yeah - WHAT rules!!!!

[Dr. Austin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Peter Mallett

"Now I don't recall JPM getting uptight about the "chop" but everybody else seems to think it's not racing."

It isn't racing. It was never done in the past, but it was a man's sport then. It is so safe now that the drivers think they are indestructable.

So let's let them have it their own way. If they refuse to drive responsibly, the rules aren't going to mean anything to them anyway. Let's just have no rules at all. Let them block, chop and swerve all they want. Move the stands back and put all future safety research into protecting the spectators. The drivers don't care about their own safety or they would be a little more careful. Screw them, they don't deserve any effort we expend on their futures.

Don't worry about soft walls or deformable structures. The drivers are expendible and cheap. Put up high concrete walls all around the circuit with high diameter steel cable in the fences. Make the spectator areas impenetrable. If the new fence construction tears the cars open and mutilates the drivers, so what? Besides what it would do for ratings, we have to protect the paying customers. The drivers can't cry about safety because they have spent all these years swerving at each other and saying it was ok. If they are going to drive stupid, why bother to try and protect them? Screw them and protect the spectators. They are the ones spending the money. Make the cars weak and flimsy so they will blow apart instead of chancing them getting into the stands. We can always plug in a new monkey for the next race.

Let them swerve and crash into each other like there is no tomorrow. Yank out the fuel cells because this is show business, baby! The Bond movies prove how successful the formula of fast cars, big explosions and half naked women is. Now, about the cheerleaders.......

You know, we could even have concrete walls that ramdomly pop up out of the track, that way a swerve would have a real purpose; to drive your opponent head on into that wall. KA-BLOOOOOOOOOEY!!! Bonus points!!!!

Take out the gravel traps and put in ramps. Just aim them at the cheap seats. Or, fill that portion of the stands with death row inmates. What entertainment! This is real reality TV, baby!!!


Forget about trying to write a set of rules to govern driver conduct. they won't obey it anyway and the FIA sure won't enforce it. Just let them kill each other off on a weekly basis.








"Sorry but if the FIA allows it then anybody can do it (and they do)."

Maybe the FIA allows it, but they ignore their own rulebook in the process. When a collossal body count comes out of a swerve gone wrong, the courts will adjudge the FIA refused to enforce it's own safety rules and is negligent. See if we have a governing body or a sport after that.

[mariov]

Originally posted by eatapc
That was quite uncalled for. The announcers on Speed Channel complained that the world TV feed had only one alternate angle on the incident -- high overhead from the chopper -- and it cut away before the contact. The live feed missed the leaders going into the corner, and cut to a better angle only a few frames before the contact. It seemed to show JPM's front tires just ahead of TGF's. Less than half a car length. But the touch did happen in the middle of the track, so I tend to agree with JPM that he gave enough room.

I'm happy for you that you saw better shots, but there's no reason to be snotty about it.

Being snotty about it, no just giving the tgf fans a taste of their own medecine....

You see us normal fans will see the talent in other dricers and give them credit for it.

But hearring a talented drives like JPM being called a "Punk", when after all his little driving irregularities, after tryng to punt some of the best drivers on the circuit...I wonder what makes JPM a punk.

Well since he does not let tgf push him around, I gope that all the other drivers on the circuit get the massage and act like "punks" also.

And as for the feed we saw it clearly here, and to be honest even with a bad feed you saw exactly what happend...

It is expected from tgf.....we have all gotten used to it, and it's about time the FIA does something about it.

As for my comments being uncalled for, it compensates for stupid comments that degrade any driver not called Schumacher. And make a joke out of good racing....

[Mania]

I think it's very significant what happened in the first corner. 2 Weeks ago - some of the people here who are now crying foul over Schumacher's swerve were laughing and shrugging away Barrichelo's similar move on Ralf Schumacher.

Now the shoe's on the other foot - aint it boys.

[Valve Bounce]

Don't just complain here - go to my poll and vote

Is there anyone here who watched digital TV who might have had a better view of what happened than us who had to watch the ITV feed?

I am also waiting for Jukebox, who went to the race, to see if he saw anything more than we did.

[mac]

It was a ridiculous penalty.

I don't believe in these MSchu conspiracy theories, but I do believe Montoya was dealt with far too harshly.

From what I saw, Montoya didn't leave Schumacher much room, but it was probably just enough. I thought Schumacher was desperate and didn't want to lose a position, so he went in a bit hot and understeered into JPM. A simple racing incident. Go to a kart race and you'll see the same thing every weekend.

Consequently, there was no way on Earth Montoya deserved his penalty.

As for the Schumacher chop, it was obvious and deliberate, but I am prepared to let that go. I feel as though when he does it, he knows what he is doing and he knows that the car behind is clear from him, he is in control. If he moves across and hits someone, then it's wrong, but that hasn't happened (Jerez '97 was different - it was a deliberate attempt to disable JV's car). I feel one move is fine, it is when cars start weaving all over the shop that I have a problem.

[Carla O]

did anyone notice Schumi saying in the press conference after the race

" we don't seem to have a very consistent situation" about JPM's penalty...

of course its not consistent... the rules vary according to who is in the lead and who was put out...

[EERO]

Originally posted by mariov


As for my comments being uncalled for, it compensates for stupid comments that degrade any driver not called Schumacher.

No, it doesn't. Civilized discourse is dependant upon NOT rising to the bait. If you disagree with what some one says, offer your opinion. If you ythink some one was out of line, say so-politely.

We are a community here -attack the post, not the poster.

Mallett, its good to have you back-I'm glad to see that you haven't softened

Dr. Austin, thanks for a couple of highly entertaining posts. The Monza Grid one had me chuckling and I thought the "Death Race 2002" shows quite amusingly the extreme outcome of this dilemma of inconsistant rules enforcement.

(See Carla, some one did notice!)

[Dr. Austin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mania

"I think it's very significant what happened in the first corner. 2 Weeks ago - some of the people here who are now crying foul over Schumacher's swerve were laughing and shrugging away Barrichelo's similar move on Ralf Schumacher."

Swerving is always against the rulers. it is always stupidly dangerous. It is always utterly unsporting. No matter who is doing it.

I spent most of the last two weeks slagging off Barrichello's stupidity, and I will not let schumacher get away unslagged either. If the FIA wants to allow all of this because F-1 is no longer sport, why don't they just come out and say it. Don't pretend all of these scumbaggardly tactics are acceptable. They aren't.

[Mania]

Not to defend Schumacher in this one Dr.Austin - but I dont think what Schumacher did was illgeal in terms of following the rules. He swerved once and that was all. Barrichelo was swerving right, right, and then left before hitting the brakes. Big difference.

Schumacher's swerve is dangerous - agreed. But it was not illegal like Barricehlos was.

We can debate whether Schumacher should have backed off or whether Montoya should have backed off.

But I do not agree that the swerve was illgal because it was one line change and not 3 like Barrichelos.

[Dr. Austin]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mania


"Schumacher's swerve is dangerous - agreed."

Swerving is going to kill someone.



"But it was not illegal like Barricehlos was."

I still want someone to show me the rule that allows it. I've posted the FIA rules for two weeks now and begged anyone and everyone to show me where one swerve is legal. No one has provided me with a link.




"We can debate whether Schumacher should have backed off or whether Montoya should have backed off."

I think Monty may have backed off, but i don't have access to the telemetry.





"But I do not agree that the swerve was illgal because it was one line change and not 3 like Barrichelos."

Barrichello should have had his license pulled on the spot. If i were Ralf, i woul;d have kicked Rubens right in the nuts.

But again, please show me where it is written in the rules where one move is permissable.

[Mania]

My understanding Doc is that the rule is the same that Inigio Montoya posted on the other thread. A driver is allowed one change of direction.

The FIA in 2000 said that Schumacher's ONE swerve was within the rules. Since then DC has tried it and Schumacher has continued to use it.

I guess, you can say it is a matter of interpretation. Some of us can say the rule doesent mean you can swerve, and the other lobby will say one change of direction has been allowed so the driver is free to change line - whether he does it by slowly pulling to one side or otherwise is where the question lies.

I dont think the swerve was the problem in this case - rather the fact that both drivers braked later counting on the other to brake first. Seems like a "Yahoo"
start and sprint to the first corner that caught them out rather than anything else...IMO.

[Dr. Austin]

No, the swerve wa not the problem with their first corner collision. But it is unfair to punish Montoya for two reasons; (A) Schumacher slid out into Monty, (B) I can't remember the last time they did anything like this and (C) Schumacher instigated the entire thing with an illegal swerve.

As far as a driver being allowed one move, here is the response i made to the question on another thread;

I suppose it would be ok, but "manuvers liable to hinder" would render that same move illegal. And what if that one move was "deliberate crowding?" And no one can ever saw Schumacher's violent full track width swerves are anything but an illegal abnormal change of direction.

The swerve is illegal. The FIA rules spell it out in black and white.

[strad]

Obviously you have the link...you keep quoting the same rules...so read you know darn well it's right there...

[strad]

And the hell of it is, the "official" reason for the penalty, was that Juan "caused" an avoidable accident!...give me a break!

[strad]

And my point in posting the rules is to show how poorly written they are in term of being able to be read to mean different things...take for instance that it is illegal to swerve across the track to block an opponent BUT then they say you can make one move to block...well it seems they've come to take it that THAT means it's legal to do the Schumacher chop...how can that be?? That is swerving across the track to block ,,,isn't it??? Or is it one change of line to block?? Ones legal ones not...How can that be?
That was my whole reason for posting the verbatim rules
How do we, they, anyone, makes sense of such drivel...Either swinging across the track to hinder an opponent is illegal or it's not..NO?

[Inigo Montoya]

If they were to follow those official rules Doc likes so much, trust me, you would not enjoy F1 racing. Let them race, I say...

[SCHUMISALO]

WELL DONE MATE! AT LEAST I'M NOT THE ONLY SANE ONE ON EARTH!
NAT_SCHUMISALO
xxx

[SCHUMISALO]

... THAT SAME HAPPENED TO MR. VILLENEUVE IN '98, WHERE SCHUMI ALSO TOOK THE BLAME! THE GOOD OLD PARIS COURTS ARE THE BEST! THEY WOULD NEVER BAN SCHUMI- BECAUSE THEY KNOW THAT HE IS THAT DAMNED GOOD! AND IT WOULD LOOSE THE SPORT TOO MUCH MONEY.
NAT_SCHUMISALO
xx

[SCHUMISALO]

my appologies- '97!

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by strad
And the hell of it is, the "official" reason for the penalty, was that Juan "caused" an avoidable accident!...give me a break!

This is outrageous. Where did you get this information from? PLease give us the web site or link.

[BBKing]

That was on Speed channels news.