[Official] Spanish Grand Prix 2023: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 8 of 23

[Beau2]

That's a really strange way of claiming Ferrari were dominant from 1997 onwards.

Just because they won a few races in 1997 which contributed to how dominant they became in the next 300 or 400 or so does not mean their period of dominance started in 1997. You might as well say Mercedes dominance started in 2013 because they won a couple of races that year.

I think most people would say Ferrari's dominance started in 2000. Even then, they weren't dominant on a 1988 McLaren or 2014 Mercedes level until 2001-2002.

1997-1999 had too many other wins from other teams to say anyone was dominant. In fact, I'd argue that 1997 brought to end Williams' mid-90s dominance, with Bennetton sandwiched in the middle.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Beau2

That's a really strange way of claiming Ferrari were dominant from 1997 onwards.

Just because they won a few races in 1997 which contributed to how dominant they became in the next 300 or 400 or so does not mean their period of dominance started in 1997. You might as well say Mercedes dominance started in 2013 because they won a couple of races that year.

I think most people would say Ferrari's dominance started in 2000. Even then, they weren't dominant on a 1988 McLaren or 2014 Mercedes level until 2001-2002.

1997-1999 had too many other wins from other teams to say anyone was dominant. In fact, I'd argue that 1997 brought to end Williams' mid-90s dominance, with Bennetton sandwiched in the middle.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...9&postcount=47

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Beau2

That's a really strange way of claiming Ferrari were dominant from 1997 onwards.

In 1997 Ferrari finished P2 and P8 (pre-TGF DQ) in the WDC and P2 in the WCC.

A funny sort of domination.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

In 1997 Ferrari finished P2 and P8 (pre-TGF DQ) in the WDC and P2 in the WCC.

A funny sort of domination.

Yes, as explained in the linked thread that looked at spans of success - to try and break down the whole history of F1 then benchmark spans were taken (50, 100, 150 races etc) and for a minimum of 3 whole seasons. 1997 was included in the assessment of Ferrari to span a certain benchmark.
It is true that you could exclude 1997 and look after that date, but the overall results would not show more dominance compared to other periods.

The original comment was 'from 1997 [onwards]'. Not specifically 1997 alone.

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...9&postcount=47

That's fine, an interesting way to skew statistics. But it's difficult to accept the idea that Ferrari were "dominant" from 1997 when they didn't win the most races in 1997, 1998 nor 1999. Those years were simply competitive with no one team being dominant. What came after was dominance from Ferrari.

There is no correlation between that list and the list you originally posted which included the likes of Brawn, which is what has made this chat confusing.

Why isn't Williams 1992-1997 on that list? They won 52 out of 98 Grand Prix. In the 98 races races Ferrari took part in "from 1997" onwards they actually won less than Williams did 1992-1997.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Beau2

That's fine, an interesting way to skew statistics. But it's difficult to accept the idea that Ferrari were "dominant" from 1997 when they didn't win the most races in 1997, 1998 nor 1999. Those years were simply competitive with no one team being dominant. What came after was dominance from Ferrari.

There is no correlation between that list and the list you originally posted which included the likes of Brawn, which is what has made this chat confusing.

Why isn't Williams 1992-1997 on that list? They won 52 out of 98 Grand Prix. In the 98 races races Ferrari took part in "from 1997" onwards they actually won less than Williams did 1992-1997.

You would need to read the full thread to understand where / how they feature.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157672

But, in short:

Williams 92-97 https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4139311&postcount=42 (peaked at 27 from 48 and 103 from 301)

Their 59 from 114 was bettered by Ferrari in 2004 with a 69 from 117.

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

You would need to read the full thread to understand where / how they feature.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157672

But, in short:

Williams 92-97 https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...1&postcount=42 (peaked at 27 from 48 and 103 from 301)

Their 59 from 114 was bettered by Ferrari in 2004 with a 69 from 117.

That's not the point I was making - also the above table does not show Williams 92-97 but rather Williams 82-97 and a bunch of other years.

Williams won 52 out of 98 races 1992-1997. Ferrari won 49 races out of 98 1997-2002 (minus the last two races of 2002 to give us an equal dataset). Thereby, using your guide Williams were more dominant from 92-97 than Ferrari were 97-02.


I'm sorry but I don't need need to read that whole thread to acknowledge that Ferrari were dominant "from 1997". They simply weren't - it's not a reality. They may well have been building up to a dominant period though. The same goes for Williams, they were dominant in 92, 93 & 96 but just because they won the most races 92-97 doesn't mean they were dominant "from 1992 to 1997".
This is the big issue I have just picking a certain number of races (50, 100, 200, 98). Formula 1 and most other sports don't work like that because the variables are attached to the seasons, not a round figure of races or events.

Like I said, Brawn were on your original list but are not on the list on that separate thread. I'm not sure why you picked Ferrari from 1997 originally when Brawn only competed in 17 GP and the 2002 or 2004 Ferrari had a better win rate. Ferrari have had more dominant 17 race spells than Brawn had.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

You would need to read the full thread to understand where / how they feature.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157672

But, in short:

Williams 92-97 https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...1&postcount=42 (peaked at 27 from 48 and 103 from 301)

Their 59 from 114 was bettered by Ferrari in 2004 with a 69 from 117.

Surely a better way to show Ferrari's dominance, would be to go from 1999, when they won the WCC, to 2004? That's 101 races with 63 wins.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Surely a better way to show Ferrari's dominance, would be to go from 1999, when they won the WCC, to 2004? That's 101 races with 63 wins.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...9&postcount=47

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Statistically, it's:

Mercedes from 2014
Alfa-Romeo from 1946
McLaren from 1988
Brawn from 2009
Ferrari from 1997

However it is looked at though - it is far from definite that Mercedes had easily the most dominant package ever.

that's not what I meant

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by HDTVKSS

I think a lot of people forget just how much of a beast that 2004 Ferrari was. I think it was Melbourne practice, rolled it out did a flyer, put it away and topped the session.

This season kind of reminds me of 2004, Micheal and Ferrari way ahead with a team not usually at the front a distant 2nd.

Playing the Jenson Button/BAR role of 2004 would be Fernando Alonso... who of course was also there in 2004 playing the Alonso role!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...9&postcount=47

https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...1&postcount=57

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Skam85

This season kind of reminds me of 2004, Micheal and Ferrari way ahead with a team not usually at the front a distant 2nd.

Playing the Jenson Button/BAR role of 2004 would be Fernando Alonso... who of course was also there in 2004 playing the Alonso role!

Yes Button was very unlucky that season. The first year he has a truly competitive package and it's a year when Ferrari have one of their most dominant packages! And the three races Ferrari didn't win Button either had problems or at Monaco, the Renaults were faster

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Ferrari from 1997

Didn't McLaren take pole position by over 1 second at Melbourne 1998, with the McLaren style of car quickly becoming the preferred type of design for the narrow track, grooved tyre era? Much of the 1999 grid seemingly being McLaren clones...

Of course Ferrari battled well, and didn't look back between 2001 and 2004, apart from 2003 when the Michelin tyres were often superior. (Obviously in 2005, the Michelin tyres were far superior and Ferrari had no chance at all, before mounting an unsuccessful challenge to Renault in 2006.)

Possibly it was Ferrari who advocated for the beryllium ban that set Mercedes-Ilmor engines back considerably, on the basis of health concerns and because Ferrari's own attempts with the material did not go well. Seemingly this was a wise choice by Ferrari as it both reduced the power output of the rival Mercedes engines and also made them unreliable.