[Team] Williams: Do they have a spare tub?

[loon]

what will Williams do when the Stroll's take away their bag of gold?

[djinvicta]

Patrick Head really did say "Bye Bye, I'm off" at the right time..
So surprised at Rob Smedley, so much experience there and he appears lost, but then, hands tied, it's not Ferrari and no open chequebook...

[P38 in workshop]

Sadly,we appear close to the end stage of an organisation that has spawned a culture of nobody taking initiatives.It seems universal that the jobsworth approach is so embedded in Formula One that a veteran mechanic or two talking to an engineer couldn't devise and implement a couple of quick and dirty fixes.The lack of testing and the corporate culture mitigate against such things.The alternative?Carry on tumbling down the grid with extensive documentation of all the under performing parts and the processes that led to their place in the cars.Given the life of car components and the truth that it takes as long to make uncompetitive parts as it does to make good parts,it needn't take forever to make something new.All it takes is somebody with a clue and there are numerous people with impressive job titles who should have a clue.

[Mekola]

The brand has to be re-associated with an old automaker, to renown some of its paths.
For instance, how beautiful sounds it: WILLIAMS-BUGATTI

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

So surprised at Rob Smedley, so much experience there and he appears lost, but then, hands tied, it's not Ferrari and no open chequebook...

I don’t think there’s much surprise in the paddock or with the rank and file in the team.

[wnut]

This article in Motorsport magazine detailed the Williams problems, one of them being that they were structured as a manufacturer team without the necessary funding.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...s-state-nation

"Williams was – and is – spending a significant part of its budget on producing components of high engineering density but which offer no performance advantage over those which can be bought much more cheaply from, say, Mercedes. It prides itself on being an engineering company but arguably isn’t buying lap time with that costly capability. It thereby denies itself the capability of spending that money on performance differentiators. It’s also why it’s been the first team to place such emphasis on using drivers to generate income – from Pastor Maldonado through to the current Lance Stroll/Sergey Sirotkin line-up."

Then they appoint people to the organization to turn it around and fire them the instant something goes wrong. The staff and partner turnover to my way of thinking continues to be a problem. Dirk De Beer, Ed Wood, Massa, and Bottas "sold" to Mercedes. (Also losing the Martini sponsorship.)

The level of engineering also seems to be crude with an aluminium gearbox and suspension push rods still on the cars, being symptomatic, and not mirrored by any other team in the paddock.

Stroll was also 1.2 secs slower than Kubica in the latter's one off appearance in Spain.

Not exactly the formula for success.

[S griffin]

You’d think the recruitment of Paddy Lowe would have helped, but obviously not

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by wnut

This article in Motorsport magazine detailed the Williams problems, one of them being that they were structured as a manufacturer team without the necessary funding.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...s-state-nation

"Williams was – and is – spending a significant part of its budget on producing components of high engineering density but which offer no performance advantage over those which can be bought much more cheaply from, say, Mercedes. It prides itself on being an engineering company but arguably isn’t buying lap time with that costly capability. It thereby denies itself the capability of spending that money on performance differentiators. It’s also why it’s been the first team to place such emphasis on using drivers to generate income – from Pastor Maldonado through to the current Lance Stroll/Sergey Sirotkin line-up."

Then they appoint people to the organization to turn it around and fire them the instant something goes wrong. The staff and partner turnover to my way of thinking continues to be a problem. Dirk De Beer, Ed Wood, Massa, and Bottas "sold" to Mercedes. (Also losing the Martini sponsorship.)

The level of engineering also seems to be crude with an aluminium gearbox and suspension push rods still on the cars, being symptomatic, and not mirrored by any other team in the paddock.

Stroll was also 1.2 secs slower than Kubica in the latter's one off appearance in Spain.

Not exactly the formula for success.

That's an interesting snippet. It looks like the old British malaise of "But we've always done it this way. I think the same thing happened to our motorcycle & car industries many years ago, I'd be very sad if Williams end up going the same way...

[P38 in workshop]

I don't think the choice of gearbox material has a significant effect on the overall speed of the car.The fundamental problem seems to lie deeper and may need a mind free from established Williams methodology to highlight a course of action to recover from this slump.Which could be an uncomfortable situation for some.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I don't think the choice of gearbox material has a significant effect on the overall speed of the car.The fundamental problem seems to lie deeper and may need a mind free from established Williams methodology to highlight a course of action to recover from this slump.Which could be an uncomfortable situation for some.

Interesting article which actually tries to end on a positive note. I read it not so much as the gearbox material as being the problem, but that it might be indicative of the overall situation. That given Williams is trying to solve more problems than they should (not sourcing off the shelf when they could), that they are providing something like an 80% solution everywhere vs a 100% solution in targeted areas which may make a difference.

Richard

[chunder]

All that will change is that Stroll will possibly try and buy even more into the team. If he wants to, right now he is basically paying for the engines as I understand it. So team aspects might be next if he wants to. But that's a bold step for ma kid w=who is clearly never going to be anything special in a race car's Dad! No matter how rich

And that is when Williams will likely end.

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Interesting article which actually tries to end on a positive note. I read it not so much as the gearbox material as being the problem, but that it might be indicative of the overall situation. That given Williams is trying to solve more problems than they should (not sourcing off the shelf when they could), that they are providing something like an 80% solution everywhere vs a 100% solution in targeted areas which may make a difference.

Richard

I think we are saying basically the same thing.Doing things the same old way isn't working and it might need a fresh approach-perhaps a fresh technical chief-to modify the way they are going about things.Carrying on along the same path doesn't look too promising.

[S griffin]

They do need some changes if they are to get anywhere, as it is clear they have been left behind by the others

[Mekola]

Originally Posted by chunder

All that will change is that Stroll will possibly try and buy even more into the team. If he wants to, right now he is basically paying for the engines as I understand it. So team aspects might be next if he wants to. But that's a bold step for ma kid w=who is clearly never going to be anything special in a race car's Dad! No matter how rich

And that is when Williams will likely end.

As ended in 1976 the first team... Also bought by Canadian entrepeneur that time... The petroleum magnate Walter Wolf...
Story tends to repeat...

[S griffin]

The more things change the more they stay the same

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Interesting article which actually tries to end on a positive note. I read it not so much as the gearbox material as being the problem, but that it might be indicative of the overall situation. That given Williams is trying to solve more problems than they should (not sourcing off the shelf when they could), that they are providing something like an 80% solution everywhere vs a 100% solution in targeted areas which may make a difference.

Richard

It ended on a positive note because it was written before the car had turned a wheel..! The summary is that (sadly) Williams is running a champagne ship on beer money, hoping that something will turn up - more equal regulations, VW, a mystery backer (again) who knows.


In the meantime, probably the cruel choice is to become Mercedes 'B' - take as much Mercedes kit as is allowed ( why not, they will have spent more money, time and resources designing it, testing it and building it that Williams ever could). It will mean losing probably a third of the staff, but they will be in survival mode soon..

[chillibowl]

how much does Williams receive in historical/special payments?

certainly its no where near Ferrari but i want to say its also a lot less then Mclaren....i do recall they were ultimately still getting more then Force India despite placing lower on the constructors table.

again, while not actually knowing the numbers, i would also question the function/validity of historical prize money if that prize money is indirectly leading to a team become less efficient, less competitive, less interested in advancement.

[Mike Harte]

From what I can recall over the fairly recent years, the Williams Group of Companies, of which the racing team is just one part, remains a profitable institution.



It must always be borne in mind that Williams, like McLaren, also maintain interests in providing services and products to businesses from outside the world of motor racing, and even outside of anything to do with the automotive world.


One of Williams' outside projects is supplying supermarkets with chill saving devices for their open refrigeration units. They also supply, or licence, the modifications used to the supermarkets' refrigeration suppliers. The modification came about from their observations made during wind tunnel work on their F1 cars.

[chillibowl]

well someone somewhere within their holdings must be doing something right as their share price hasent totally collapsed as a result of their abysmal race performances. actually has gone up a few dollars since Jan 2017.

http://www.williamsf1.com/pages/corp...%20information

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

how much does Williams receive in historical/special payments?

certainly its no where near Ferrari but i want to say its also a lot less then Mclaren....i do recall they were ultimately still getting more then Force India despite placing lower on the constructors table.

again, while not actually knowing the numbers, i would also question the function/validity of historical prize money if that prize money is indirectly leading to a team become less efficient, less competitive, less interested in advancement.

I don't know that these special payments will exist for Williams in the new structure and remember that the payments are nett after FOM costs which are a lot more than in Bernie's days, so they may not end up any better off.

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

[wnut]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

how much does Williams receive in historical/special payments?

certainly its no where near Ferrari but i want to say its also a lot less then Mclaren....i do recall they were ultimately still getting more then Force India despite placing lower on the constructors table.

again, while not actually knowing the numbers, i would also question the function/validity of historical prize money if that prize money is indirectly leading to a team become less efficient, less competitive, less interested in advancement.

$69 M + $10M(Special Pmt) = $79M

From

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/129388

in

F1 Finance - What is going on? Thread.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

In the meantime, probably the cruel choice is to become Mercedes 'B' - take as much Mercedes kit as is allowed ( why not, they will have spent more money, time and resources designing it, testing it and building it that Williams ever could).

But Force India is already the Mercedes B team... why would Force India allow Williams to take a similar status?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

again, while not actually knowing the numbers, i would also question the function/validity of historical prize money if that prize money is indirectly leading to a team become less efficient, less competitive, less interested in advancement.

But Williams F1 is all about being on the cutting edge of technology?

The famous Williams F1 CVT for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto Truly a team that pioneers and innovates!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Mekola

They must recover the sponsorship of Canon.

Canon don't need to advertise, they are already the most popular brand of consumer cameras.

Albeit Sony and Panasonic are more successful in the professional (movie and TV) arenas if I understand correctly.

[Armco Bender]

Williams: Do they have a plan?

Apparently not.