Brabham BT 2

[Terrill]

The out of print Des Mahoney book "Trio at the top" has B/W photo of Denny in an FJ Brabham on the grid talking to his wife at Crystal Palace 1963 where he finished 4th. The car is light blue I would think and has the number 63 on the nose. The text states that he "borrowed" the car for the event.

[Terrill]

Further to my post yesterday, I believe the caption in the book mentioned is incorrect. I recently did a comprehensive research effort for Graeme Browne the current owner of FJ - 3 - 62 based entirely on published material that is around. Entries to my competition summary for the project lead me to believe the year was actually 1962 and that it was indeed Gavin Youl's works car that Denny was driving. As evidence Gardner was racing his works car on the same day at a different circuit.

11th June 1962. Crystal PalaceEntrant: Brabham Racing Organization.Driver: Denis Hulme.
B.A.R.C. Championship, Rd 7. Car # 63. 15 laps Final
Heat 1 5th place Final. 4th place.

11th June 1962.Mallory Park.Entrant: Brabham Racing Organization.Driver: F.Gardner.
(2000 Guineas Trophy - Formula 1 support race)Car # 66. 30 laps.
3rd place.

[Bryan Miller]

That definately makes it 1962 , as in 1963 Frank Gardner was driving the BT6 for Ian Walker Racing.

Bryan.

[allenbrown]

Thomas Gelb ran a #66 Formula C "BT2" at Elkhart Lake 27 July 1968. Nothing more known - about the car or the driver.

It could of course be a typo for BT21.

Allen

[allenbrown]

FC Ward wins a clubbie Junior at Silverstone in a Brabham at the end of the 1963 season (AS 20 Sep 1963 p389) and is mentioned in the text as Cliff Ward, not Frank Ward.

[allenbrown]

And Roger Mac makes his single-seater debut in a Brabham at Mallory on Boxing Day 1963. Did Ward and Mac both have FJ-9-62?

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

And Roger Mac makes his single-seater debut in a Brabham at Mallory on Boxing Day 1963. Did Ward and Mac both have FJ-9-62?

According to Duncan R. the answer is yes they did.
Allen, have you any trace of the Jo Schlesser car (FJ-5-62) after 1963?

Marcus

[allenbrown]

Sorry Marcus - nothing at all after 1963.

Allen

[supertiga]

HI Wayne
cleaning out the offic the other day and found file on your car.

will try to post some info from it this week.
might ring a bell somewhere with the other like minded ones.

Everyone---Wayne should be given a medal for retriving this car.
4000+(?)mile round trip
to the high swamps in louisiana
with enough cash to be arrested for being a drug dealer
fought alligators-held off the locals-shot down mosquitos
all to load a complete bt2 roller into a pick up truck!

my frustrations in identifying the car other than Bill Anspatch(still living in florida)led to me probably never restoring the car.

also this car was never raced in texas i dont belive.thats where i found it and it was obvious that the crash damage that Bill did at sebering(?)was never repaired to race worthyness.

I will also try to find the mans name who has what i belive are the brakes,sump tank and gearbox for this car on his bt-6--Waynes(x-me) bt2 has the bt-6 parts on it.

Wayne--did the bt-6 oil tank go with car or is it still here somewhere?
these 2 cars crossed paths(and parts) somewhere in history.
tryed to trade parts at one time but he wouldnt do it.
he did send me tracing of oil tank--did you get this drawing when you picked up car?

I did and still do belive this is the 2nd car and also the one in sports car graphic.the clue if memory is correct is the fuel pressure gage on the dash.
my understanding is only one car had this gage.

David

[supertiga]

to late to edit---that should say first car(not bt-1)

Wayne
if my memory is still working(kemo changes things)
the car has light blue paint under the dark blue?

[JWRBT2]

Originally Posted by David McKinney

That's the accepted history, Roger, but it does have a few drawbacks
1) Photographs show that Hulme's Boxing Day Brands Hatch car was indeed the prototype BT6
2) Roy James's car was not a BT2, but a BT6 (the Hulme/Brands car)
3) It seems unlikely any car numbered FJ-13-62 was ever built

Hi David,
I would dearly like to see some photos of the car Denis drove on boxing day 1963, at Brands Hatch.
Have you seen the article on page 88 of the March 1963 edition of Motor Racing? Near the middle of that page, in brackets, the author states:-

(Incidently, Hulme, who is Jack's works FJ driver for 1963, was using an interim-model Brabham on that day).

Also on page 78 of "The Train Robbers" by Piers Paul read, it is written that Roy James wrote off the first (BT6 ??) Brabham FJ and then obtained another. The first car only appeared in James's hands at Eltham park.

By conversation only, i.e. not written down, I have heard that Roy james appeared at the Brabham factory pleading for another chassis, but that no new ones were available, so he settled for an ex works "prototype"; presumed to be the interim BT2/6.

I do have a letter from Graham McRae stating that the car he drove was numbered "FJ-13", and Denis said that they at times would glue a number on a car to facilitate entrys etc. Also not all cars had #'s stamped into the chassis!

David or Ted, please email or post copies of any boxing day photos of Denis' car.
I am intrigued by the history of the car that I have guardianship of.

Sorry to join this thread so late.
Regards,
John W Rapley.

[allenbrown]

Welcome John!

[Teretonga]

The ex James car went to Ray Thackwell (father of Mike) 65/66 and 66/67and then to GP McRae (Graham McRae of F5000 fame) who ran it in 67/68. McRae then built himself the first of his own singleseaters using the the engine/gearbox etc from the Brabham. The BT 2 (?) then passed through several hands, actually used as a FF for some time before ending up where it is now.

[David McKinney]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The ex James car went to Ray Thackwell (father of Mike) 65/66 and 66/67and then to GP McRae (Graham McRae of F5000 fame) who ran it in 67/68. McRae then built himself the first of his own singleseaters using the the engine/gearbox etc from the Brabham. The BT 2 (?) then passed through several hands, actually used as a FF for some time before ending up where it is now.

That's certainly the widely accepted theory
Only hitch is that James's car was a BT6, and the Thackwell/McRae car a BT2

[JWRBT2]

Hi David,
I still believe that the only explanation is that the NZ car is the second Roy James car. That fits with Denis running a prototype BT6 at Brands Hatch on Boxing day and the car being basically a BT2.[There is a period magazine article which states that the chassis was an "interim" one, while Jack made a press release from South Africa saying how pleased he was with the new BT6.]
One of the differences that I noticed is that the rear upper shock mounts are lower than the standard BT2, and the later shocks were indeed slightly shorter.
I would welcome any further information on the history of the Roy James car, and any photos of Denis' car from that Boxing day meeting at Brands.
Thanks for your input eveyone.
John Rapley.

[allenbrown]

John

Did the press release specifically give the model number 'BT6' or did it just refer to the new 1963 F/Junior? I'm trying to find out exactly when MRD started using these BT numbers as the records I've been able to get hold of suggest they were retrospectively applied to the 1962 cars.

For example, the distinction between the BT4, BT7 and BT7A is a problem as one car was built half way between the BT4s and the BT7As and was given the same style of chassis as a BT7. Even as late as 1965, MRD built a pair of cars that don't fit anywhere in their BT model system. I've long suspected that the second Roy James car was just an evolution of the 1962 car towards the 1963 car and nobody at MRD had 'BT2' or 'BT6' in their mind as they were building it.

Allen

[Denis Lupton]

As well as the magazines quoted by John Rapley,further articles are in
Autosport January 4, 1963, P14 & p15,which says D.Hulme in a new 1963
Repco Brabham won the feature F. Junior race,and broke the outright lap
record,using a 5 bearing camshaft experimental Holbay engine.
Motor Racing, February 1963,P43,has a photo of the car and says it is the interim model,with different rear bodywork and rear radius rod pickup points.
Incidentally,Graham McRae had dinner at my home some time ago,brought along his scrap books and photos,and he was sure the car was a BT2.
chassis number FJ-13-62,the interim model,he had spoken to all the people involved ,and had all the fact's at his disposal.
Graham was also good enough to let me photocopy his photos,and some of his results.
Cheers Denis

[edholly]

I have just posted some details on the 1962 Boxing Day Brands Hatch meeting where Denny Hulme won the event.

These are on the BT6 chassis archive file and when you read them you will see why there and not here.....

[allenbrown]

How nice of Denny to make an owner feel good about his car in that way. However, I wouldn't give the merest gram of weight to that as historical evidence. Denny put 'his' engine out of 'his' car into the 'spare' BT6? Sorry, it was an experimental Holbay in a prototype BT6. And there was barely any snow that day. Need I go on?

[edholly]

Allen, do you think Denny was the type of guy that would want to make an owner feel good about his car? Granted the engine/gearbox reference does not make sense, but I can only quote what I was told, inaccuracies et all.

Could not the "prototype" BT6 as referred to, not have ended up a BT6 off the assembly line in late December with the "prototype" tag attached to it just for that meeting, and when returned to stock have become chassis 4 ?

If there was a prototype what happened to it? Would Ron have discarded it after it had won a race?

[edholly]

The second line of the above post should read :-

does not make sense, but I can only quote what I was told, inaccuracies (if any) et all.

Ed

[allenbrown]

Bear in mind that the car was not referred to as a prototype BT6, it was referred to as "the interim model". Autosport just called it a works 1963 Brabham. I'm not sure MRD would have a "production line" as we would think of one and cars may well have been built up to order so I think it's much more likely that MRD had a development car than Hulme nicked something of a production line.

All I'm saying is that I'd take that story with a large pinch of salt.

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by Marcus Mussa

Hi Dave,
The car now owned by Bob Goeldner is the ex-Mike Harrison car I was talking about earlier. It certainly seems to be a genuine car but we are trying to discover which one. We have traced it back to Jeremy Bouckley, and even a bit beyond, and the car we think it is (i.e. chassis 9) can be traced forward to Geddes Yeates, however the junction has not yet been made.

Some other names have appeared thanks to Alan Putt, mostly people in the Monoposto Racing Club which used to run FJ in the UK, and who have owned this car (this was before Jeremy Bouckley) : they include J.Aspinwall (1969), Paul Hull, Andrew Hull and Peter Henry (the last three owning it together in the 70’s). Do these names ring any bells?

John Aspinall is credited by Motoring News in 1969 as running a BT6 'ex Sports Motors' which would at least tie in with the suggestion that this car went from Roger Mac to Geddes Yeates via Tony Dean and Rodney Bloor

Did Sports Motors ever run a BT6?

Chris

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Thomas Gelb ran a #66 Formula C "BT2" at Elkhart Lake 27 July 1968. Nothing more known - about the car or the driver.

It could of course be a typo for BT21.

Allen

I can tell you that this was indeed a BT2, because Mr Gelb, who won the Cen Div SCCA title with the car in 1968 has just sent me a photo of the plate, which he still has with his racing trophies, full documentation of his racing career and a good deal of correspondence about the car from MRD. He also sent me some photos of the car and it looks like a BT2 to me.

Now I am not going to tell you what the chassis number says just yet, because the howls it will provoke mean that I will need to see that correspondence anyway to prove the car's provenance.

However, would it be correct that Brabham BT2s had a brass plate rather than the black bakelite or foil one that later went on the dash board of BT18s and the like?

Chris

[Bryan Miller]

Chris,

Absolutely correct re. brass plate , my old car still had FJ-8-62 fixed to dash panel , 4 rivets through each corner of brass plate.

Bryan.