[Driver] Lewis Hamilton Champion

[Peter Mallett]

He's too slim to live on chocolate bars surely?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

He's too slim to live on chocolate bars surely?

He's restricted to the 'mini' ones by dietitian / trainer.....

[ScotsBrutesFan]

There has been one Hamilton thread closed recently as a result of unnecessary remarks for which infractions were handed out.
Please lets make sure that this thread doesn't become the second one.

F1 Mod Team

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Lewis is borderline with his plane. Perfectly ok for business use, he has a right to claim the VAT back...the personal use bit maybe not so much, but I’m sure his tax lawyers are far better at answering that question. The fact he nor his company have tried to hide anything from the HMRC leads me to think it’s completely legal avoidance strategy or he has been badly advised that it was ok

so question about the VAT...in Canada our federal sales tax (GST) is a refundable tax for business. essentially, a business collects GST on its sales, then deducts the GST they pay out on business related expenses/supplies/inputs and remits the difference to our tax authority.

wondering if VAT works the same way.

if it does, then isnt this is simply just a matter of business use vs personal use property as opposed to the concept of hiding money/tax avoidance?

Originally Posted by bella

one would presume he manages to hide a lot of his use that appears personal as business use for an image rights company of his or such like. making appearances (and promoting them on social media) would then i presume allow him to pay himself as a social influencer working for his own company and voila, that skirt chasing trip to fashion week is now business.

this for me.

given the nature of his career, sponsor commitments, personal appearances under the guise of promoting his 'brand' etc, i would think it would be fairly easy for LH (and a half way decent tax specialist) to make a very strong case that all his travel is business related.

and im sure he has the invoices to prove it!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

so question about the VAT...in Canada our federal sales tax (GST) is a refundable tax for business. essentially, a business collects GST on its sales, then deducts the GST they pay out on business related expenses/supplies/inputs and remits the difference to our tax authority.

wondering if VAT works the same way.

if it does, then isnt this is simply just a matter of business use vs personal use property as opposed to the concept of hiding money/tax avoidance?



this for me.

given the nature of his career, sponsor commitments, personal appearances under the guise of promoting his 'brand' etc, i would think it would be fairly easy for LH (and a half way decent tax specialist) to make a very strong case that all his travel is business related.

and im sure he has the invoices to prove it!

The question isn't whether his use of the jet is personal or business. The financial transaction was carried out by an IOM-registered company, who then allow Hamilton to use the jet. Imagine it like a taxi or limo company, who provide a car and driver for only one client. In this case it is a jet, pilot and crew being provided.

[Mike Harte]

To avoid doubt, the following is from a BBC News website page, and explains the structure that Hamilton uses:



And to further avoid doubt, these business arrangements have been practiced for years, usually for fully justified reasons. My firm had a similar arrangement in the 80s because I spent over 6 months a year travelling around Europe and the Far East. It was far cheaper, more convenient and certainly more flexible than relying on airline schedules and waiting times.

There is nothing wrong with these schemes in principle; the problems arise when companies and individuals abuse the system. And when our aircraft was not in use for my business, we permitted it to be chartered by others.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Imagine it like a taxi or limo company, who provide a car and driver for only one client. In this case it is a jet, pilot and crew being provided.

using a sports analogy, if LH has a personal trainer and that trainer only has one client (LH) does that then mean that personal trainer is not conducting a legitimate business (subject to writing off business expenses and collecting a sales tax refunds)?

obviously there is much more to this then i know or have read about, but to be fair, a business with only one client isnt unusual.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

To avoid doubt, the following is from a BBC News website page, and explains the structure that Hamilton uses:

Attachment 50683

And to further avoid doubt, these business arrangements have been practiced for years, usually for fully justified reasons. My firm had a similar arrangement in the 80s because I spent over 6 months a year travelling around Europe and the Far East. It was far cheaper, more convenient and certainly more flexible than relying on airline schedules and waiting times.

There is nothing wrong with these schemes in principle; the problems arise when companies and individuals abuse the system.

thanks for that infographic Mike.

follow up question then...when you get to step 4 - 3rd party management company leases the plane to LH's BRV Ltd....are they not adding VAT on the lease cost of the plane?

so the tax authority gets the VAT from the end user and not from the original purchaser...isnt that how consumption taxes are supposed to work?

[Mike Harte]

No chilli, and that is the reason that the aircraft now belongs to an IOM company, and it is leasing it to a service company in another place that doesn't operate VAT. And the cost of leasing the aircraft can be offset against Hamilton's income, thereby reducing any potential liability even further.

The problem with scheme, in my opinion, is that although it is probably legal, it is totally artificial. And currently our tax authority, HMRC, are actively targeting artificial schemes, and the courts at the moment tend to support the Revenue's stance. Although they operated a different type of scheme, one of the UK's older major football (soccer) teams were found to be operating outside of the rules using an artificial arrangement, and now HMRC are investigating a number of our Premium League teams.

[Peter Mallett]

What what this got to do with being WDC? There will be sanctions for off topic posts unless we all get back on topic.

[chillibowl]

ok making a bit more sense to me now...thanks Mike.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

What what this got to do with being WDC? There will be sanctions for off topic posts unless we all get back on topic.

Peter, the direct connection is that the newly crowned WDC is front page news for activities that have nothing to do with driving.

It cannot be ignored, and the tax discussion has centred on the WDC, not anyone else.

[Peter Mallett]

Nothing to do with driving. Hold that thought.

[Akrapovic]

Man. When Jimmy Carr did this, the Prime Minister himself took time out of his busy schedule to come out schedule to call him out on it. When Lewis does it, it's fine because everyone does it and it's just fine and normal and in no way should routing £16m purchases through places you don't live be suspicious!

I wonder when the Prime Minister will make a direct comment about Lewis Hamilton, Apple, and the Queen. Or if the rules are different for different folks. Funny how all of this stuff is perfectly legal, and never seems to be closed by those with the power to close it.

Oh well, just another day for Lewis discussion. Some hate him because he does Ali G impressions, and others will defend him to the ends of the Earth. Doesn't look particularly good for F1 for this to come out right after he wins the title either.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Man. When Jimmy Carr did this, the Prime Minister himself took time out of his busy schedule to come out schedule to call him out on it. When Lewis does it, it's fine because everyone does it and it's just fine and normal and in no way should routing £16m purchases through places you don't live be suspicious!

I wonder when the Prime Minister will make a direct comment about Lewis Hamilton, Apple, and the Queen. Or if the rules are different for different folks. Funny how all of this stuff is perfectly legal, and never seems to be closed by those with the power to close it.

Oh well, just another day for Lewis discussion. Some hate him because he does Ali G impressions, and others will defend him to the ends of the Earth. Doesn't look particularly good for F1 for this to come out right after he wins the title either.

Lewis isn't the only person connected to F1 who is included in the papers. As he is current WDC, he has attracted the majority of attention.
Given that what he did was entirely legal, that he was not alone in doing this, that he isn't the only person to do it and that it has no impact on his track performances, I struggle to see why he should be subjected to criticism.
This smacks of a 'don't hate the player, hate the game' type of situation.
If he and his team identified a way to maximise their on-track results they'd be expected to take it. This is part of his mentality, and helps to make him a multiple WDC, so it shouldn't be a surprise when he applies the same approach off-track.
We expect the FIA to close down regulation 'loop-holes' when they are exploited, not for drivers to ignore an advantage identified?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Lewis isn't the only person connected to F1 who is included in the papers. As he is current WDC, he has attracted the majority of attention.
Given that what he did was entirely legal, that he was not alone in doing this, that he isn't the only person to do it and that it has no impact on his track performances, I struggle to see why he should be subjected to criticism.
This smacks of a 'don't hate the player, hate the game' type of situation.
If he and his team identified a way to maximise their on-track results they'd be expected to take it. This is part of his mentality, and helps to make him a multiple WDC, so it shouldn't be a surprise when he applies the same approach off-track.
We expect the FIA to close down regulation 'loop-holes' when they are exploited, not for drivers to ignore an advantage identified?

Wellllll....technically we don't know if it's legal - all depends on if that jet he uses is actually all for business. A quick look at his social media paints a very dangerous picture for Lewis. But I'm happy for innocent until proven guilty and yeah for the majority of it, it all seems perfectly legal because of loopholes and all that good stuff.

However that isn't my point. My point is, this happened before - several times. And the leader of our country came out and made an actual statement and publically shamed someone taking advantage of this very system and called it hypocritical and morally wrong.

So, given we've had the leader of our country come out and publicly shame people for using this before, are we expecting Tersa to come out and make some stumbling awkward statement about how Lewis is morally wrong and hypocritical for taking advantage of such a scheme? Man that'd look good for F1 eh. Actually you're right - Lewis isn't the only one doing it! So lets get them all named and shamed by the most powerful people in the country. It's morally wrong and hypocritical right? Or is it fine and legal now because someone popular did it? I can't keep up.

We could hate the game rather than the player. But then again, the game is written by those who take advantage of the very system (wonder why old Crazy Dave didn't call out his old man?). So at that point all that's left is the players and the choices that they make. And hey guess what - I (and anyone else) can judge people for making decisions, regardless of legality. Nobody has to care about those judgements, but I don't believe that the law is the only way of defining right and wrong.

So I'll continue to judge the players of this game. Anyone who attempts to avoid paying their way is a tool. Regardless of name, age, race, gender or ability to drive a racing car to an exceptionally high standard, kick a football around a field, or tell jokes standing on a stage. But it's almost beautiful in how perfect a fit it is - a sport that has actively tried to become elitist and get rid of the riff raff fans has a tax avoider as World Champion. If it was written in a novel it'd almost be too obvious to be believable.

Lewis Hamilton - incredible F1 driver. One of the greatest who ever lived and four time world champion. Brit, if not by current resident, and MBE. Also a tax avoiding tool. But it's avoiding, not evading, so he's not a criminal - just a tool.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

.............. Also a tax avoiding tool. But it's avoiding, not evading, so he's not a criminal - just a tool.

IMO he's a very wise person, as is everyone who avoids paying more tax than they need to.
Would the first person who can show that they voluntarily have paid more tax than they need to please step forward.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

IMO he's a very wise person, as is everyone who avoids paying more tax than they need to.
Would the first person who can show that they voluntarily have paid more tax than they need to please step forward.

This. Why on earth would you offer to pay more tax than you are legally obliged to pay.

Hands up all forum members who will offer to pay another 20% on their current deductions....

...yeh thought not

[ScotsBrutesFan]

OK this is the F1 section. If you want to start a thread discussing the events and revelations currently in the news regarding tax avoidance then there is a place to do so namely the Parc Ferme section.

[Akrapovic]

Edit: Removed due to mod post above - fail play!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

OK this is the F1 section. If you want to start a thread discussing the events and revelations currently in the news regarding tax avoidance then there is a place to do so namely the Parc Ferme section.

And can I make a suggestion to everyone. If you do so please take the time to consider all of the situation and attempt to understand what another user is saying rather than superficially just trying to prove someone else is wrong or put someone down. The purpose of the exercise isn't to win at the internet. Attempt that and you lose at being a human.

We can all be guilty of this, but sometimes we take it just too far.

/modage

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Peter, the direct connection is that the newly crowned WDC is front page news for activities that have nothing to do with driving.

It cannot be ignored, and the tax discussion has centred on the WDC, not anyone else.

I absolutely think it can, personally. I'm with Peter on this.

[midgetman]

I think Lewis Hamilton drove very well to become world champion against strong opposition. Those who say he had the best car ignore the fact that so did Valtteri Bottas.

Most WDCs have the best car, they work very hard to get it. Fangio frequently jumped ship. Clark really let rip at Indy with the Lotus. Andretti had the 79 and a better (to my mind) but honourable #2.

So it proves nothing - and actually to read Motor Sport this month is to learn that the Merc is not necessarily the best car of 2017. "A bit of a diva indeed".

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I absolutely think it can, personally. I'm with Peter on this.

And it isn't that you aren't allowed to discuss it, rather there is a more appropriate place and, certainly, a more appropriate manner.

/moretediousmodage

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Those who say he had the best car ignore the fact that so did Valtteri Bottas.

But..., no. I read on the forum that "the car was designed more with Hamilton in mind", with a narrow operating window that suited Hamilton's driving style more. Are you saying this is not the case?

I'm curious to know why Mercedes would deliberately build an inferior car with a very narrow operating window, and then it to suite Hamilton? If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the 2017 car mostly designed and built in 2016, when Nico Rosberg was #1 at Mercedes? Did Mercedes know Rosberg was going to quit when the 2017 car was being designed and built, and so deliberately chose to build an inferior car with a narrow operating window, and around Hamilton's driving style?? Hmmm....

Originally Posted by midgetman

and actually to read Motor Sport this month is to learn that the Merc is not necessarily the best car of 2017. "A bit of a diva indeed".

Are you saying Motor Sport magazine thinks the Merc wasn't the best car of 2017?
Sorry, but... no. I'm afraid "the rest of the forum" does not agree with that.


Sheesh... next thing you know, someone is going to say Hamilton is a far better driver than Vettel!!