[BTCC] 2024 BTCC Rds. 13/14/15 Oulton Park

[porsche962fan]

Turkington is out of title fight , there might be an extra problem for Sutton , namely that Cammish might not be willing to move over since he creeped back in the title picture with consistent podium finishes

Hill 211
Tingram 207
Sutton 187
Cammish 169

Cook 153
Turkington 146

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

Turkington is out of title fight , there might be an extra problem for Sutton , namely that Cammish might not be willing to move over since he creeped back in the title picture with consistent podium finishes

Hill 211
Tingram 207
Sutton 187
Cammish 169

Cook 153
Turkington 146

History would suggest that you are probably right in terms of Turkington, however we have seen a 50+ point swing in the second half of the season before.

And worth noting that if Cammish is a potential problem for Sutton, then Turkington is a potential problem for Hill too......

[porsche962fan]

you really want to say 18 points behind teammate is same as 75 behind points behind ?? l??

[InYourMirrors45]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

Turkington is out of title fight , there might be an extra problem for Sutton , namely that Cammish might not be willing to move over since he creeped back in the title picture with consistent podium finishes

Hill 211
Tingram 207
Sutton 187
Cammish 169

Cook 153
Turkington 146

Considering that Cammish had to take to the grass to try and overtake him and then they were banging doors all the way down towards the chicane I think your right.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

you really want to say 18 points behind teammate is same as 75 behind points behind ?? l??

Please be so kind as to highlight where crmalcolm said that, because as much as I look, I cannot see that. Being charitable, maybe you misread what he wrote.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Please be so kind as to highlight where crmalcolm said that, because as much as I look, I cannot see that. Being charitable, maybe you misread what he wrote.

he implied with this , the gap between this teammates in about 4 times higher

And worth noting that if Cammish is a potential problem for Sutton, then Turkington is a potential problem for Hill too......

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

he implied with this , the gap between this teammates in about 4 times higher

This implies that you have misunderstood what was written. crm acknowledged that you were probably right that Turkington was probably out of the race, however history has proved that a 50 point deficit might not be a problem.

He then just says that Turkington may create a problem for Hill, because, and he doesn't need to write this as again history proves this is the case, Turkington never gives up probably because things sometimes happen to competitors that can then benefit him. Case in point, the loose panel for Sutton and a puncture for Sutton, and all of these things can suddenly turn the points situation upside down.

A good competitor such as Turkington will never give up, and even if later in the season team orders come into play, he can still drive his own race.

[Mike Harte]

Someone who is better acquainted with the rules may be able to answer this, but I always thought that if a driver even unintentionally drives even a few feet of the extension of a track, such as at Island Bend where it carries on to Shell Oils hairpin, then the driver must keep going up to to end before coming back and re-joining at the exit of the Island Bend. I thought that I have seen this done in previous years.

I ask because in race 1, Hill locked up completely and had travelled at least a car's length onto the track extension before he drove over the grass before re-joining Island Bend.

I think that that was taking an unfair advantage over all the other drivers in that race.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

This implies that you have misunderstood what was written. crm acknowledged that you were probably right that Turkington was probably out of the race, however history has proved that a 50 point deficit might not be a problem.

this ain't Disneyland

over 50 points deficit against one guy, yes you can argue maybe Hill has a rotten meeting and loses his advantage

BUT there are another 3 guys in between, Tingram, Sutton and dark horse Cammish and it would require all of this guys having some rotten luck and for Turkington NOT to have anymore bad ones to be back in the hunt

[hen henths]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

this ain't Disneyland

over 50 points deficit against one guy, yes you can argue maybe Hill has a rotten meeting and loses his advantage

BUT there are another 3 guys in between, Tingram, Sutton and dark horse Cammish and it would require all of this guys having some rotten luck and for Turkington NOT to have anymore bad ones to be back in the hunt

Turks could still be a problem for Hill if he starts outscoring him as he would take points off him. I agree it would be a tall order for him to get the title though now.

I enjoyed the racing, especially between Sutton and Ingram. Agree the soft tyre advantage was ridiculous. Doble was great in race 3. Sutton was unlucky but did well racing while ill!

[crmalcolm]

Mike pretty much summed it up. It's not about the actual points gaps involved, but the mindset behind the wheel.

Sport will forever be tied to record books, and whenever a record is set, a record is also broken.

At 28-3 down, did the Patriots say the deficit is too much?
Or closer to home, in 2016 did Shedden say that over 50 points deficit and 8 drivers ahead of him mean that the title race was over (those drivers included Ingram, Sutton, Neal, Jordan and Jackson)?

If Colin genuinely believes he has the talent to take another title, he will realise that we are only at the half way point. And whatever has happened in the points table in the first half of a sporting contest can always be reversed in the second half.
He will look at the upcoming tracks and be confident that he has the right machine to score big (Croft/Knockhill/Donington GP). So regardless of whether he is 18 or 80 points adrift, he is just as likely to contest for race wins. This will be even more true given the fact that, whilst they are both racing out of the WSR garage, they are competing for different backers and teams.

Yes - it would require an exceptional change in fortunes - but isn't that part of the appeal of sport?

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

This will be even more true given the fact that, whilst they are both racing out of the WSR garage, they are competing for different backers and teams.

Dick Bennets probably doesn't care which of his drivers wins title as long it is a BMW, would be really foolish not to impose team orders should situation require

Yes - it would require an exceptional change in fortunes - but isn't that part of the appeal of sport?

again it's not fairy tales , Turkington simply has too much bad luck and lost his mojo

in that last race I bet he wouldn't have been capable to pass both Astras and snatch a win like Jake Hill did

[Mike Harte]

Having spent a day in the sun at Oulton - this is the third time recently for me for the BTCC and every time the weather has been glorious if a bit too hot - I am just watching my recording of the events of the day.

I've just finished watching Race 1, and in addition to my question above about Hill and his problem at Island Bend, can someone with their knowledge of the rules enlighten me about the rules on overtaking when going into a corner or chicane. I ask because it seems evident to me that Sutton had his front wheels almost alongside Ingram's front wheels on the inside of the first part going into Hislops. Sutton maintains his position and in a straight line, but Ingram closed the door touching the front wheel arch on Sutton's car.

Ingram then moves slightly to the left and then looses it slightly, applies opposite lock, straightens up and goes over the grass to regain the track missing the chicane.

I thought that the rules had been tightened up and that when an overtaking driver had his car's front wheels, in a controlled way, alongside at least the rear wheels of the car in front, then that driver is supposed to cede the corner.

I appreciate that we have discussed this previously, but the little grey cells don't work as well as the should. All I know is that 60 odd years ago when I raced, we were always remind of the above driving standard at every drivers' briefing. And I think that we all observed it in a proper racing way; not stopping and saying after you in a silly way of racing, but using common sense and taking our cars home at the end of the day without unnecessary damage.

[cameronpoe]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Having spent a day in the sun at Oulton - this is the third time recently for me for the BTCC and every time the weather has been glorious if a bit too hot - I am just watching my recording of the events of the day.

I've just finished watching Race 1, and in addition to my question above about Hill and his problem at Island Bend, can someone with their knowledge of the rules enlighten me about the rules on overtaking when going into a corner or chicane. I ask because it seems evident to me that Sutton had his front wheels almost alongside Ingram's front wheels on the inside of the first part going into Hislops. Sutton maintains his position and in a straight line, but Ingram closed the door touching the front wheel arch on Sutton's car.

Ingram then moves slightly to the left and then looses it slightly, applies opposite lock, straightens up and goes over the grass to regain the track missing the chicane.

I thought that the rules had been tightened up and that when an overtaking driver had his car's front wheels, in a controlled way, alongside at least the rear wheels of the car in front, then that driver is supposed to cede the corner.

I appreciate that we have discussed this previously, but the little grey cells don't work as well as the should. All I know is that 60 odd years ago when I raced, we were always remind of the above driving standard at every drivers' briefing. And I think that we all observed it in a proper racing way; not stopping and saying after you in a silly way of racing, but using common sense and taking our cars home at the end of the day without unnecessary damage.

When you unwind the lock and straight line the Chicane you are missing part of the circuit , so this gains time, Ingram was quick to slow on the next Apex to put Ash back onto his bumper .. I.e no gain .. but of course there is a gain and that is track position , I think maybe he had lost the corner and decided to go straight on ? The COC seemed content this time .. but this overlap guidance does seem hard to fathom

[ScottS]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Someone who is better acquainted with the rules may be able to answer this, but I always thought that if a driver even unintentionally drives even a few feet of the extension of a track, such as at Island Bend where it carries on to Shell Oils hairpin, then the driver must keep going up to to end before coming back and re-joining at the exit of the Island Bend. I thought that I have seen this done in previous years.

I cannot answer your question but when I was watching the TCR livestream they were doing the loop as you mentioned. It was also enforced a good few times by the commentary team also that if they went slightly off that they had to do the full loop and not just turn around.

Although I have a feeling there might of been a fire van parked in the middle of the exit of the loop during the touring car day but I could be wrong on that bit. ?

[Greem]

Alan Gow was asked on the grid about Ingram's chicane excursion and made the point that on the way in he was a car length ahead, and on the way out he was... A car length ahead. No advantage whatsoever.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Greem

Alan Gow was asked on the grid about Ingram's chicane excursion and made the point that on the way in he was a car length ahead, and on the way out he was... A car length ahead. No advantage whatsoever.

That's as may be, Graeme, but the point is that I am pretty well certain that it was decreed about overtaking etiquette/driving standards, and that was if the over-taker's front wheels were level or had passed the car in front's rear wheel, then the car behind had claim to the corner. In this instance, Sutton was fully alongside and under control - Sutton made the chicane, after all - when Ingram squeezed him, made slight contact, then had to correct oversteer before opening up the steering to go over the grass and missing the chicane.

I believe that Ingram did gain an advantage because If they had maintained the rule about overtaking as stated in above paragraph which I believe to be true (and which I seem to recall being discussed here, probably last year), then Sutton should have exited the chicane in front of Ingram.

Just to make it clear, I think that both drivers are fantastic and I admire and like them equally. If the roles had been reversed, I would still be making the same comments.

[porsche962fan]

^ you really need to make an elephant out of it ??

too many rules is an element what kills the sport

[tee.1s]

This is a random interjection, but is anyone else really disappointed by Toyota? Sure they won with cook but haven't made many strides with the corolla since 2020 when Ingram finished 4th in the standings (heavy driver tax).

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by tee.1s

This is a random interjection, but is anyone else really disappointed by Toyota? Sure they won with cook but haven't made many strides with the corolla since 2020 when Ingram finished 4th in the standings (heavy driver tax).

Excelr8 can only seem to have one car in the mix too, Chilton’s quite high in the standings but both him and Pearson have had so many reliability woes. Every chance it’ll bite Ingram at some point.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

^ you really need to make an elephant out of it ??

too many rules is an element what kills the sport

I'm afraid that I will not dignify a proper response as those of us who have been around here for a number of years know that you would be quite happy to see the BTCC turned into a type of destruction derby. All I will say is that rules are needed otherwise competitors would not have any boundaries and it would lead to racing anarchy.

[thetool]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I'm afraid that I will not dignify a proper response as those of us who have been around here for a number of years know that you would be quite happy to see the BTCC turned into a type of destruction derby.

But equally you bang on about holding driving standards to an etiquette not seen for over 30 years at this point, and then using your largely irrelevant club racing experience to make claims as to how things should be done. In many ways your both as bad as each other.

[SV8Predator]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I ask because in race 1, Hill locked up completely and had travelled at least a car's length onto the track extension before he drove over the grass before re-joining Island Bend.

I think that that was taking an unfair advantage over all the other drivers in that race.

Run that one past us again? Hill was "taking an unfair advantage"? How many places did he lose?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by SV8Predator

Run that one past us again? Hill was "taking an unfair advantage"? How many places did he lose?

He lost two places, only: however, if he had had to drive up to Shell Oils Bend and back down to Island he would have lost a lot more, even possibly right to the back.

As an aside, both Hill and Turkington, I don't recall about Morgan, have had trouble this season with locking up the fronts. And yesterday, Hill had already locked up the fronts at Hislops on one of the previous laps.

[MarcusH26]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Excelr8 can only seem to have one car in the mix too, Chilton’s quite high in the standings but both him and Pearson have had so many reliability woes. Every chance it’ll bite Ingram at some point.

Ronan seems to have traded in a whole seasons worth of luck for his maiden win , just seems to be constantly plagued by issues now which is very disappointing. Chilton has been one of the surprises of the season when he has had a car that is actually working properly, not entirely sure what happened to him in Race 3.