Brabham BT16

[Maxwalker]

Hello guys,
Does anyone of you have pictures about Peter Gethin's BT16?
Archives tell that he raced the car for the Motor Show '200', in 1966, at Brands Hatch and at Albi as well.

Regards

[gip]

Originally Posted by alleggerita

During my research on Alfa Romeo race cars, i have found and bought a collection of old race documents from he 60´s (entry sheets/technical inspection sheets) from Italy, these also included documents regarding the following cars:

F2-5-65
F2-8-65
F2-9-65
F2-12-65
F2-14-65
F2-18-65
F2-20-65
F2-21-65
F2-25-66
F2-29-65
F2-30-65
F2-33-65

I would like to sell these documents to the owners of the cars, so if you are an owner of any of these cars, please send me a private mail.

Kind regards

Patrick Dasse
Hamburg, Germany

Hi Patrick i'm interested please email me to info@mgp1.com
Best Regards
Gip

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by gip

Hi Patrick i'm interested please email me to info@mgp1.com
Best Regards
Gip

Those are long gone!

[gip]

Hi thanks, any possibility to discover something more about the bt16:
F2-21-65?
Where gone after Bellasi?
To De Adamich or to Facetti?
Which are the main differences from bt15? Apart the engine sca/mae

[phdm]

Originally Posted by gip

Hi thanks, any possibility to discover something more about the bt16:
F2-21-65?
Where gone after Bellasi?
To De Adamich or to Facetti?
Which are the main differences from bt15? Apart the engine sca/mae

Gearbox, brakes, driveshafts, fuel tanks.

[gip]

Originally Posted by phdm

Gearbox, brakes, driveshafts, fuel tanks.

Ok thanks but may you explain me better about the differences of these parts in bt15 and bt16?
Thanks a lot

[bschenker]

Brabham BT16-21-F2-65
One of the 4 cars of the Martinelli Sonvico Racing Team was used in a few races by Guglielmo Bellasi.
Last race for M&S 04.09.1966 Trofeo AGIP in Monza as F3 with Clay Regazzoni (Instead of Silvio Moser).



With the follow result.


The chassis without engine was purchased by Fredy Amweg CH, repaired and equipped with a 1.6l Lotus Ford. This car he had in use up to the sale 1971 to Hans Obrist CH.


Unfortunately, I could not find any further details about the remaining of this car.

[bschenker]

Regarding the Brabham BT15 / 16 of the Martinelli & Sonvico Racing Team, we have created the following list for the book "Silvio Moser - Pilota indipendente":


http://www.silviomoser.ch/2014schedeBT15BT16.pdf

[bschenker]

Fredy Amweg with the Brabham BT16-21-F2-65 on the Kerenzerberg (CH) hill race 29.09.1970.

[Maxwalker]

The last picture you post about the chassis repaired made me compare with my BT16 (AM57). I mean that the roll hoop seems to be very similar and wheels to be at the same width.
In my case it is the opposite, I know the story from now to approximately the early 80's/late 70's. The last known owner was leading a Citroen garage in Marseille, France (specialized in Panhard, and I know by some people that he had had switzerland customers). I supposed the car has been crashed because pedals are wrong fitting and the oil tank has moved to the back. It might be a coincidence!

Kind regards,

[bschenker]

Images from BT16-21-F2-65 today received from a friend.

[phdm]

Originally Posted by bschenker

Images from BT16-21-F2-65 today received from a friend.

Beat,
I have seen these photos before.
The car ended up in Belgium and I believe that it is now in the UK after passing through the hands of a dealer in the north of France.

http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/bra...9/b16009ss.htm

Take a look at the photos. The specific roll hoop and rear bracing and the steering wheel are the same.

[phdm]

Originally Posted by Maxwalker

The last picture you post about the chassis repaired made me compare with my BT16 (AM57). I mean that the roll hoop seems to be very similar and wheels to be at the same width.
In my case it is the opposite, I know the story from now to approximately the early 80's/late 70's. The last known owner was leading a Citroen garage in Marseille, France (specialized in Panhard, and I know by some people that he had had switzerland customers). I supposed the car has been crashed because pedals are wrong fitting and the oil tank has moved to the back. It might be a coincidence!

Kind regards,

AM57 was "restored" by a Mr Mathevet in France many years ago.
It had an MAE engine with twin downdraft carbs.
I have a few photos of the car going back to that time.
Because of the wrong pedal arrangement (and probably some other reasons), someone tried later on to sell this car as BT6 !

Incidentally, I owned a few years ago AM56 that had come from Switzerland and had been fitted with an ugly Sbarro bodywork.

[Maxwalker]

Originally Posted by phdm

AM57 was "restored" by a Mr Mathevet in France many years ago.
It had an MAE engine with twin downdraft carbs.
I have a few photos of the car going back to that time.
Because of the wrong pedal arrangement (and probably some other reasons), someone tried later on to sell this car as BT6 !

Incidentally, I owned a few years ago AM56 that had come from Switzerland and had been fitted with an ugly Sbarro bodywork.

You are definitly right, we were in contact a few years ago.
At the moment I know the previous owner before Mr Mathevet. His name was Mr Henri Pugnot (as I mentioned above he was leading a Citroen garage in Marseille, France) but apparently he passed away. I am still looking for the contact of his son, Claude.

[bschenker]

Originally Posted by phdm

Beat,
I have seen these photos before.
The car ended up in Belgium and I believe that it is now in the UK after passing through the hands of a dealer in the north of France.

http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/bra...9/b16009ss.htm

Take a look at the photos. The specific roll hoop and rear bracing and the steering wheel are the same.

Clearly the same car!


Then would be clarified around which BT16 it is exactly?
Sonvico & Martinelli bought two new BT16s in 1965 BT16-09-F2-65 and BT16-21-F2-65.


If Sonvico did not make a mess, the BT16-09-F2-65 was sold to New Zealand bevor September 66 and should have been there in 2003 after a mail I received.


There was then still the somewhat later bought BT16-02-F2-65, which was at that time until the sale in spring 1967 in the garage Silvio Moser.


So the Monza accident car had been the BT16-21-F2-65. That this accidental chassis was sold to Fredy Amweg is unambiguous. Fredy Amweg has done the repair and modifications in his workshop. Including the steering wheel made by himself.



However, in the link http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/bra...9/b16009ss.htm it is called BT16-09-F2-65.


So the @Maxwalker named car with AM57 has nothing to do with it?


No one was known at Sonvico the AM numbers, the AM41 number is for which chassis correct.


Perhaps someone know the correct AM numbers of the following chassis?
BT16-02-F2-65
BT16-09-F2-65
BT16-21-F2-65
BT15-16-F3-65

.

[Maxwalker]

Originally Posted by bschenker

So the @Maxwalker named car with AM57 has nothing to do with it?

I think so

[Maxwalker]

Originally Posted by phdm

AM57 was "restored" by a Mr Mathevet in France many years ago.
[...]
Incidentally, I owned a few years ago AM56 that had come from Switzerland and had been fitted with an ugly Sbarro bodywork.

Some more news about this car.
I figured out three previous owners.
Before Mr Mathevet, it was owned by Mr Pugnot who led a Citroen garage in Marseille, South of France.
He bought this car in 1976/1977 to Michel Hugon and resprayed it in British Racing Green.
Mr. Hugon confirmed to me that when he get the car it had a red bodywork.
Himself bought it in "La Reole", a small village nearby Nogaro, to a Ford agency services garage called "garage Thomas".
The first 10 years will probably be the more difficult to recover!

Does anyone have info/photos from Trevor Blokdyk's BT16 crashed in Albi in 1965?
He had a long recovery prior to race again in May 1966. Was it the same chassis that has been repaired or a new one when he started racing again?

[phdm]

The Bokdyk car was actually a BT15 (F3-22-65) that later went to Jean Sulpice.

Refer to: https://tentenths.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=107

Did your investigations about AM57 allow you to determine when and by whom the front end of the car was repaired with floor mounted pedals ?

[Maxwalker]

From Brabham production tables it seems that 26 BT15 and 21 BT16 F2/3 were produced in 1965. How can we confirm if it was BT15 or 16?

From records and after speaking with someone who assisted in live to Blokdyk's crash, I would have no doubt that it was in September 1965.
This person told me that he hit a bale of straw from the front end and the car rolled over a few times.
He didn't race until May next year due to major injuries.
http://www.racingyears.com/driver.ph...Trevor+Blokdyk
http://www.racingyears.com/race.php?...ate=1965-09-26

I've been in touched with Jean-Bernard Sulpice in 2018 (Jean Sulpice is the french singer by the way). He confirmed me by email that the chassis he bought to Blokdyk was not crashed.
Sulpice sold it (ad published in Sport Auto magazine, n°78 - July 1968) to a swiss guy in 1968 (he doesn't remember the name, but only to have performed the VAT exemption process...) without the engine that he kept for his pygmee. Would it be linked with Sbarro and AM56 with twin cam...?!
Attached some pictures of the car shared by Sulpice, I have no legend on it.

I wonder if the wrecked car did not end up somewhere and if Blokdyk didnt go with another one after he recovered?!

Unfortunately my investigations does not allow to specify who did the repair.
But I know that this car has never been used (even in races/events) since Hugon sold it. He had it in order to train himself for 1975 "Volant Shell".
I do believe the repairs were done before.

[phdm]

This car has 1100 series driveshafts, as fitted to the BT15.
A BT16 would have the larger 1300 series driveshafts.

[allenbrown]

Jo Vonlanthen and Bruno Wernli both raced unidentified BT15s in Switzerland in 1969. They might be a good place to start.

Also Arthur Frischknecht raced one in September 1968, but then acquired a Merlyn for 1969.

[Maxwalker]

Originally Posted by phdm

This car has 1100 series driveshafts, as fitted to the BT15.
A BT16 would have the larger 1300 series driveshafts.

Agree with you, but seems not very definitive on Brabham side as per datasheet attached (found somewhere (Tentenths?!) on the internet).

[Simon Hadfield]

The lower water rail built in to the chassis is different where it meets the engine by the seat back bulkhead on the BT15 and BT 16. Can you provide a photograph of that detail?

[Maxwalker]

It might not be very visible on the pictures attached, but outlet tube is inside the reverse "Y" behind the seat bulkhead.
Following car refit, they used this tube as a channel for an oil pipe.
Was not this difference between BT16/15 to BT14?

[Maxwalker]

Pursuing the restoration of AM57 chassis mentioned above, I made few interesting discoveries (pictures in attachements):
-Old chassis paint matching original RAL 7024 used in period
-Brazing marks in the area of pedal mountings, cross tube basement from dashboard frame to front frame, seat supports, matching with original BT16 chassis arrangement
-Dzus fitting behind the front frame might suggest a bodywork in two parts may have been used...

Still 10 years of history to recover from 1966 to 1976.
Will start looking at magazines by any clue if an ad from '70 to '75 can be relevant to fill the gap.