Toyota/Rebellion Racing - Le Mans/ILMC/LMS - 2011 (merged)

[GT6]

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

A very outdated comment. Petrol is here for a while yet but the future at the top step of the Le Mans podium is reserved for other technologies. To spend money making a petrol car go quicker is only ever going to be a short term solution, and if Toyota want to make a positive impact after F1 then they'd need to show commitment to the future of automotive technology, and they'd need to prove that they can make it work. That future is very unlikely to involve petrol.

The demise of Petrol?

All cars have to be originally powered by something even Hyrid cars, diesels have advantages but so to has petrol. Plug in electric cars are clean at point of delivery but the most inefficient when taking everything into consideration so are they the future? probably not.

The development of lean burn petrol engines which are in some cases more efficient than diesels could put an end to diesels we just can never know for sure what will happen. However oil produces both petrol and diesel as part of the refining process so you might as well use both.

Racing teams will try to gain any advantage over the other teams as regulations favour one type of fuel they will use that, as time goes by the first team to spot that the advantage has moved elsewhere will be happy to jump at the oppurtunity to take advantage of that

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by GT6

The demise of Petrol?

All cars have to be originally powered by something even Hyrid cars, diesels have advantages but so to has petrol. Plug in electric cars are clean at point of delivery but the most inefficient when taking everything into consideration so are they the future? probably not.

Apart from Fuel Cell Cars which make their own fuel to some extent.

A full size racing FCV is some way off and a car that produce its own fuel from the most stable of products hydrogen (!) may not be the best soloution when racing, but you never know.

Toyota announced in June that by 2015 they will be selling a fuel cell car, others like shell, BASF and honda are also pressing on trying to bring costs down and the pace of progress is pretty quick.

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by GT6

The demise of Petrol?

All cars have to be originally powered by something even Hyrid cars, diesels have advantages but so to has petrol. Plug in electric cars are clean at point of delivery but the most inefficient when taking everything into consideration so are they the future? probably not.

The development of lean burn petrol engines which are in some cases more efficient than diesels could put an end to diesels we just can never know for sure what will happen. However oil produces both petrol and diesel as part of the refining process so you might as well use both.

Racing teams will try to gain any advantage over the other teams as regulations favour one type of fuel they will use that, as time goes by the first team to spot that the advantage has moved elsewhere will be happy to jump at the oppurtunity to take advantage of that

True, I was just going from the point of view that petrol is perhaps beginning to be seen as a 'dirty' resource, and as you suggest, manufacturers will always want to go with whatever will put them in a good light too. Petrol power won't disappear, not for a long while yet, but alternative fuels and power sources are becoming a bigger concept all the time.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

The Japanese have not won Le Mans, and you could even go so far as to say ORECA won it for them, with no Japanese drivers in the car.

Oh , is that like Jaguar didnt win Le Mans in 1988 or 1990 ? Or Audi havent won Le Mans either !!!

The teams doing the running were employed by the manufacturers to run and represant them .

So , Mazda won , as did Audi and Jaguar .

[997 brakedust]

Don't have the depth of knowledge of everyone on this forum - so interested in your thoughts on the fact that it seem that in Sports Car racing the cars are the stars. In F1 it seems more about the drivers and the drivers championship. As a manufacturer, it seems to me that showing off one's technology at LeMans is the place to do it - even with far less TV exposure. Thoughts?

[The Badger]

Welcome to 10/10ths .

Le Mans gets the full exposure every year now , mainly on Eurosport .

Le Mans is the place to showcase your efforts .

I feel its a bit of both ..... cars & drivers are the stars .....

For example , NcNish & Brabham are real stars . Some of the cars dont shine so much , as do some of the drivers !!!

[CTD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Welcome to 10/10ths .

Le Mans gets the full exposure every year now , mainly on Eurosport .

Le Mans is the place to showcase your efforts .

I feel its a bit of both ..... cars & drivers are the stars .....

For example , NcNish & Brabham are real stars . Some of the cars dont shine so much , as do some of the drivers !!!

Well, the main focus in Sportscar racing is the cars. Drivers often come in 2nd place.
ex. when you talk about who will win Le Mans, then you talk about the cars before the drivers, but in F1 it's drivers before the cars.
another ex. Bruno Senna was quickly "forgot" and just a part of the Oreca car.
Only few drives (internationaly) overshinnes their cars. Jacky Ickx, Derek Bell and Henri Pescarolo.

[Alex Hodgkinson]

Originally Posted by CTD

Only few drives (internationaly) overshinnes their cars. Jacky Ickx, Derek Bell and Henri Pescarolo.

+ Bob Wollek.

[The Badger]

And NcNish , Brabham , Kristensen and Capello just to name a few .

[CTD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

And NcNish , Brabham , Kristensen and Capello just to name a few .

Well they still don't matter enough when thinking who is going to win Le Mans.
It's more important if it's a Audi or Peugeot which they are driving in.
Im not saying that drivers aren't important. Tom K, McNish, Brabham and so on, are all important, but when it comes to Le Mans, the car is often the most important car!

[The Badger]

Yeah , I guess its more aimed towards the manufacturer .

[deggis]

The spokesman also seemed to confirm reports that Toyota's F1 factory in Cologne will not be sold or closed down but rather restructured to continue to serve as the marque's ongoing European motor racing headquarters.

"We plan to convert TMG (Toyota Motorsport GmbH) into a company that is the basis for Toyota motor sport in Europe," said the spokesman.

"The exact details are not decided yet," but he indicated that the size of the workforce will be reduced.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/artic...D=352049&FS=F1

[marcosgt]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Oh , is that like Jaguar didnt win Le Mans in 1988 or 1990 ? Or Audi havent won Le Mans either !!!

The teams doing the running were employed by the manufacturers to run and represant them .

So , Mazda won , as did Audi and Jaguar .

Exactly - Presumably the original statement was from someone that is a Toyota, Honda or Nissan employee

Mazda won the 24 Hours the same way all makes do in the modern era, with professionals, not a bunch of engineers working in their spare time.

They also did it the way Jaguar did, with an engine recognisably from their own range.

Toyota might be back at Le Mans (a 2011 win would be good 20 years after Mazda did it), but nothing will take away the fact the Mazda (the smallest of the major Japanese marques) did it first AND long before any of the others did, despite the others throwing shed loads of cash into trying to do it!

M.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Oh , is that like Jaguar didnt win Le Mans in 1988 or 1990 ? Or Audi havent won Le Mans either !!!

The teams doing the running were employed by the manufacturers to run and represant them .

So , Mazda won , as did Audi and Jaguar .

TWR = British, Jaguar = British

Joest = German, Audi = German.

Oreca = French, Mazda = Japanese.

My point is that granted, a Japanese car has won Le Mans; but the Japanese haven't won Le Mans. Basically, it would be really nice to see a Japanese manufacturer win Le Mans, run by a Japanese team with at least one Japanese driver, running with the Japanese ethos of racing.

What's made GT1 so exciting is the different approach of Aston Martin and Corvette - true Britain against true USA. LMP1, and all top classes at La Sarthe in recent times, has been boring by watching a battle between Europe, and not the continents - that's why we're all crying out for Panoz to come back to the prototype scene. So I'd love to see a proper Japanese car racing at Le Mans - and not a European team driving a European-designed car with a Nissan/Toyota/Mazda/Honda badge on the front.

[isynge]

By that logic had Toyota won in 1999 - which I think we can all agree is not beyond the bounds of possibility TTE's Cologne base would have made it a non-Japanese win?

Japan has a lot of unfinished business at la Sarthe, but Mazda's win is still a Japanese win - that they used other nationalities to help them get there is entirely irrelevant.

On topic however, Mazda did it with their signature technology, i.e. a rotary, it would thus be fitting to see Toyota do it with what has become the cornerstone of their brand, in a petrol-electric hybird.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by isynge

By that logic had Toyota won in 1999 - which I think we can all agree is not beyond the bounds of possibility TTE's Cologne base would have made it a non-Japanese win?

Japan has a lot of unfinished business at la Sarthe, but Mazda's win is still a Japanese win - that they used other nationalities to help them get there is entirely irrelevant.

On topic however, Mazda did it with their signature technology, i.e. a rotary, it would thus be fitting to see Toyota do it with what has become the cornerstone of their brand, in a petrol-electric hybird.

..and more importantly, their indigenous signature technology. Those engines came from Japan. To say the Mazda win isn't a Japanese win, well then how do you handle all the wins where the team or driving crew wasn't homogeneous? Everyone acknowledges the Mazda win as a Japanese win, and rightfully so. So would one take away Nissan's 1992 Daytona 24 win (take it away as a Japanese win)? The chassis' origins were English after all...

[Mal]

So Acura wins are American, Audi when run by Champion are American, all GT2 Porsches are from the nationalities of the team and if Toyota still runs the proposed Le Mans team from Cologne it still will not be a Japanese win. Also Renault F1 is British, Honda was British and the new Mercedes Grand Prix team is also British

[Rodger Davies]

Originally Posted by Mal

So Acura wins are American, Audi when run by Champion are American, all GT2 Porsches are from the nationalities of the team and if Toyota still runs the proposed Le Mans team from Cologne it still will not be a Japanese win. Also Renault F1 is British, Honda was British and the new Mercedes Grand Prix team is also British

surely if we're going by that logic though, the Japanese have won - albeit with an Audi

[cptkablamo]

Hang on a sec, here, if we are going to be nit-picking on what nationality won the race, wouldn't you say each win was international, because not 100% of the Peugeot workforce this year was French? Just go with the nominated country...

but on something real, has anyone heard of a Toyota test in Spain this week?

[R4z3rw33n]

Originally Posted by cptkablamo

but on something real, has anyone heard of a Toyota test in Spain this week?

Yes, I heard something about that.
I'm guessing it was for the LF-A (unless they have something else we're unaware of).

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by cptkablamo

Hang on a sec, here, if we are going to be nit-picking on what nationality won the race, wouldn't you say each win was international, because not 100% of the Peugeot workforce this year was French? Just go with the nominated country...

but on something real, has anyone heard of a Toyota test in Spain this week?

Yes...any guess who was rumored to be behind it? Very interesting, but rumor nonetheless. Penske.

[Dani Filth]

that's some rumor ..

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

that's some rumor ..

It is, but is pure scuttlebutt and I don't put much faith in it.

[juicy sushi]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Yes...any guess who was rumored to be behind it? Very interesting, but rumor nonetheless. Penske.

Yeah, it's a pretty wild rumour. But if you want to be really silly, it might be USF1. They were rumoured to be a stalking horse for Penske, and if Toyota really does have a 2010 car design for sale, and USF1 is as behind on the car as rumours go, does this make a short cut?

Of course, that's only slightly less than fruitcake looney as far as baseless speculation goes...

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

Yeah, it's a pretty wild rumour. But if you want to be really silly, it might be USF1. They were rumoured to be a stalking horse for Penske, and if Toyota really does have a 2010 car design for sale, and USF1 is as behind on the car as rumours go, does this make a short cut?

Of course, that's only slightly less than fruitcake looney as far as baseless speculation goes...

If Penske were behind it then I would hope it was better organised, besides why would he need to hide behind such greats as Peter Windsor to get the thing of the ground?