AMRS going AASA?

[mixxer]

For all the fancy words being bandied about, it all boils down to a damn childish 'am not - are too' arguement and it disgusts me. Everyone is saying they have the sports best interests at heart, but they don't, it's about personalities and that disgusts me too.

You are not alone

[1200Datto27]

Actually, there is a group of us who are working to get a WRX/EVO style class up and running in Victoria as part of the state championship.

[Kerri]

Gee Storyline, what has gotten into you in the last 2 days, who got up your nose?
You first came on with some really great information and now you are just getting up people.
I normally would never question anyones comments on here, positive, negative or personal, but what's the go??????

[Matthew Ronke]

Mark gaze into your crystal ball and see what the future lays. As I said earlier find the reasons for what has transpired and you start to unlock the future for motorsport in Australia.

[GTRMagic]

But what happens to the 2 directors who choose to select the AASA over CAMS?

Presumably being ostracised is on their list of things to do, or indeed having their circuit under pressure as the CAMS political machine serves to reaffirm its 'right' as Australian ASN?

Or will it just end up on A Current Affair, about how dangerous the world is without a CAMS influence?

[XW GT]

I agree with Kerri. Cool down Storyline before your "woofer-valve" packs it in . P.S. Any idea of the Lotto numbers for Saturday night?

[storyline]

Originally Posted by Kerri

Gee Storyline, what has gotten into you in the last 2 days, who got up your nose?
You first came on with some really great information and now you are just getting up people.
I normally would never question anyones comments on here, positive, negative or personal, but what's the go??????

Kerri - nothing has gotten 'up my nose' - I merely report what my sources provide, make a reasonable interpretation of what they mean. Falcadore has an obvious bias towards anything non-CAMS (it shows very clearly) and for whatever reason if someone wants to try and do something different or to put their money where their mouth is he (and a few others) want to rip it to shreads telling us how it won't be good for the sport.

I would have thought that this attitude is one we have all seen in motor sport for the last 15-20 years and, let's face it - it hasn't done the sport any good, now, has it?.

The other side of it - don't shoot the messenger is a very good saying - a few people need to remember that.

But no - I'm happy, not a care in the world.

[storyline]

Originally Posted by XW GT

I agree with Kerri. Cool down Storyline before your "woofer-valve" packs it in . P.S. Any idea of the Lotto numbers for Saturday night?

I find this odd really - you ask me to 'cool down' yet if you re-read the message Mark popped the valve, not me - but anyway - common sense and realism will prevail.

As for Sat night - get your own - I'm on a roll - 3rd div in last weeks Powerball, 2nd div in Tattslotto 2 days later - I'm buying the next ticket when I finish work today and blah! Get your own numbers - these are mine

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by 1200Datto27

Actually, there is a group of us who are working to get a WRX/EVO style class up and running in Victoria as part of the state championship.

I thought that's what GT Performance was about?

[storyline]

Originally Posted by Chucky

I thought that's what GT Performance was about?

This is what I find odd about CAMS motorsport you see.

First State Level had Formula Alfa, then Gemini, then Victoria got in on the act and split Marque Sports and brought MG's out by themselves (OK granted numbers at the time dictated something had to be done). Then they split Porsche 944's out (and the cynic in me would say 'Hey - I wonder if this series sponsor has anything to do with this?').

This is partly, also, in answer to Falc's statement about things 'getting up his nose'

It is partially this continual splitting of categories into smaller sub-classes that is a perennial problem. Does State level sport need a WRX/EVO class? I would hazard a reasonably well-informed guess and say no - it would only cause yet another problem at state level. Tto put them on the schedule they would need to guarantee full fields at every meeting because to includ them would require another category to be dropped. Can you see any category currently on State Level schedules saying 'Oh yes, we'll agree to go'?

Certainly, if they want to be included in another category and run as a CLASS - go ahead - you help boost another field.

But - then they have the problem - which category do they merge with?

[XW GT]

Good on ya mate! Keep up the good work

[Uncle Cranker]

A wise old man [ Great Great Great Uncle Cranker the Third] once said,

" Never count your chickens before they cross the road"


Personally I believe he was a fool, as did the mental institution he lived at,

BUT,

The Jane Organisation has a long history of empty promises, I will believe in the 'Big Developments' when the cars take the green light. [gee an Australian Flag would be a nice touch....]

I seriously want this to happen, but at what expense?
Most of the officials groups are CAM$ affiliated and will face undue pressure NOT to attend AASA sanctioned race meetings.
[ & if you think this won't happen, Cranker Enterprises have a vast collection of Bridges for sale, just for you]


This has the potential to jepordise the whole project before it even takes off, I hope these 'minor details' are part of the grand plan.....



BTW, the bit about the institution was a lie, he used to be the President of CAM$, and those at Bourke Rd thought he was a fool too.



.

[silver 2]

Storyline- you keep having a go at Marque sports in Victoria for splitting classes. The fact is the grids would be oversubscibed if this was not done. It was done in a rational way to keep like with like as far as possible. This has provided room for those new competitors to get on the grid. Sheer weight of numbers is why it was done, classes of 4/5 cars are a few enthusiast true believers that want to do their own thing despite the sructure that is already there.Reinventing a "new" class at State level only serves to weaken existing classes and the sport as a whole. Proliferating more classes serves no purpose to the competitative aspects of motorsport.
The idea of "Le Mans" type sports cars caters to the 3% that want to reinvent the wheel. It will leave them as a irrelevent bit player on the fringes . To base a class in a series on such thin committment is misguided.

[Chucky]

Good call , Silver. Splitting classes is what has bought on a lot of the current mess.

But I wouldn't be naysaying the return of Group 2A sports cars just yet. That may be the one ace up the sleeve the AMRS has.

[Matthew Ronke]

Completely separate to the AMRS sports car thing. I was at a meeting at Calder of people interested in reviving 2A, 2B Clubman’s and 2C sport cars for Victoria state level and the meeting had over 30 people there and we had to knock back people from attending as the meeting had grown to large. Since then I had a number of phone calls regarding sports car and the interest is significant. If the AMRS have more people interested then I see this as being a success, All thought hard work will be required to make it happen just like anything that is put together. I think the problem with a lot of categories is they just expect people to build cars simply because they have a category. You have to have a need and a want.

I personally believe something like the 944 split off is the right direction when designing categories. It has the ability to have there own category or be absorbed into the Marque Sports class or even the Porsche Drivers Challenge. It allows flexibility and gives the car owners a number of choices to pursue with their vehicle.

[trackmaster]

But why is there a Porsche Cpu at all? That is just another way to split classes.

[silver 2]

Trackmaster I presume you mean APDC which was Porsche Cup and not the Carrera Cup .There is place for one spec class like Carrerra Cup as long as manufacterer in Porsche support it. To use the expression at the next level the long running national series in APDC(formerly Porsche Cup) has served well in spite of all the difficulties surrounding it.(political) Under the umbrella of APDC the GT series has been given a chance ( my comments made over a long period of time are clear that all of this could and should be a hell of a lot better) to survive and grow. Nothing wrong with thay per se. the problem is that as soon as CAMS stick their nose in it things are all over the place. The APDC has over a long period served Porsche owners well in providing national stage and continues to do so.
The Marque sportscar classes have generally thrived and show the basis for a series that could have widespread support. Marque sportscars are production based and as as such represent over 90% plus of sportscars. Why would you set out to run a class for the 3%, rather than tap into the existing infrasructure .

[storyline]

Originally Posted by silver 2

Storyline- you keep having a go at Marque sports in Victoria for splitting classes. The fact is the grids would be oversubscibed if this was not done.

I believe you will note that I did mention that the cause of the 'split' (bad term btw) was due to field size - I have no disagreement with that. However, as I have also shown - last Sandown meeting 18 MG's and 18 Porsches - in reality both of these cars could have competed together and allowed another category on the program (lap times, btw, are very close to each other). Sports cars only fielded 16 cars. Not arguing, merely stating numbers present and accounted for.

Reinventing a "new" class at State level only serves to weaken existing classes and the sport as a whole. Proliferating more classes serves no purpose to the competitative aspects of motorsport.

Couldn't agree more - which is why I singled out the Porsche series.

The idea of "Le Mans" type sports cars caters to the 3% that want to reinvent the wheel. It will leave them as a irrelevent bit player on the fringes . To base a class in a series on such thin committment is misguided.

I don;t believe they are attempting to create a Le Mans sole class - but to allow these cars to run WITH some other category and, like the engine capacity classes within Improved Production, Historic Touring etc, allow them to run as a class within a category.

[silver 2]

Storytime, you keep misusing selective statistics in relation to Marque sportscars . You have taken ( I have not checked ) last race stats after a weekend of attrition-- the mumber of entries is where you should be starting. even then the average over the whole year is what counts.Insread of picking continually at sportscars which have strong numbers and quality fields ( previous Sandown had 39 and THE best sportscar field seen in Australia in years and spectacular racing) 944 over 30 and MG over 30.
The sportscar classes are by way of contrast to Group N whose numbers are consistently low-- why not amalgamate them. Your arguement re the number of laps may be relevent to an HQ that has 2 gear changes a lap but the quick cars are very busy in their track time and given it is a State Championsip ( not a practice day ) there is adequete track time. The quality of the racing and the event is what matters ( who wants to go to a racemeeting where the garbage bins outnumber the spectators?)

[dmcl]

Am I alone in being a little confused how the number of MGs attending a State Level race meeting is relative to AMRS going to AASA? Have we gone a little off topic? Are we playing the ball or the man?
More importantly, apart from the ad on the inside cover of AA last week, what is officially known about this move? Has there been anything in the form of a press release - from any of the parties involved?
Sorry, a little new to forums, bit confused by where the hell this is heading.
By the way IPL, love your suggestions for F4000.

[storyline]

Sandown July 23-24 - MG's entered and qualifying - 21. Porsches Entered and qualifying - 21. Sports cars entered and qualifying - 16. A weekend of attrition - 3 MG's and 3 Porsches. Even at original entry numbers they would still have fit within the track density for sports cars at Sandown (OK maybe not quite - not 100% sure whether licence allows for 40 or 42 - believe it is the latter). (For comparison - 2005 1st meeting Porsche - 23, MG - 33, Sports - 36; 2004 3rd meeting - 19 Porsches entered and 22 sports cars - no separate MG's. 2nd 2004 meeting 25 MG's, 29 Porsches and 20 sports cars. 1st 2004 meeting 20 MG's, 28 Porsches, 21 sports car. All numbers taken from Official Reports). SO please - tell me I am being selective in the numbers - they WERE higher last year, they HAVE dropped this year and, no, the attrition was NOT high so, sorry - I have not been PICKING on the sports cars - they are, unfortunately for you, a category that highlights that the splitting of classes out of the main field does not necessarily strengthen numbers.

So, don;t know where you got the 39 number from the previous Sandown (http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re.../07/2005.SAND).

[Chucky]

Originally Posted by silver 2

There is place for one spec class like Carrerra Cup as long as manufacterer in Porsche support it.

What support?!? Oh, you mean charging exorbitant rates for spares and selling overpriced leftover race cars to competitors?

[silver 2]

Sorry about the strange choice of words but I did not want to revisit those issues. The way CAMS see it that Porsche's support is there and that in CAMS view that is desirable.CAMS paid hierachy ( and presumably the board) believe that their role is to maximize income to CAMS via CMA's and other deals and that the rank and files opinions or rights are negligble in that process.For those that still believe in the democratic process of CAMS it is long past the time for a reality check. The quickest path to reform will be via a revolution in supporting the AASA and AMRS alternatives and forcing CAMS into a reality check(hopefully they become redundant in the process). To do that the proponents of the AASA alternative must create a genuine competitor.Forget the trivial arguements of the past ( I know they are not trivial to those directly involved) and move forward on a positive note. I believe the insurance issue for example should be dissarmed by matching CAMS policy so that becomes a non issue. Competitors may not be happy with the CAMS beaucracy but the systems developed for the front line work well and any AASA direction needs to be able to assure competitors that standards will not fall.I know from personal discussions that some involved with the AASA do not have this view.
Competitors have a vested interest in seeing the AASA system succeed.Theirs needs and desires should not be ignored in an attempt to turn the clock back where circuit owners/promoters dish out whatever and the competitors runs a long last.That trust needs to be earned and a foundation laid to create a future.

[storyline]

I don't disagree with any of what you wrote - think you will find we have been agreeing all along!

Don't you also agree, though, that for a while AASA will struggle for numbers and that some compromises will need to be made in categories being raced, how they race etc? (eg I noticed there was no Racing Car category at the last VMRC round). They need to overcome this by having a system that is willing to listen and adapt itself to the copetitor - not to the little man sitting behind the desk somewhere in Malvern saying 'Oh we can get more money if we do it this way instead'?

[silver 2]

Storeytime, I have the actual entry numbers, you are looking at results which do not show DNS. Typically some cars are missing from Friday that never appear in the race results . They do appear as entries for the weekend so I stand by my point, you are barking up the wrong tree in continually using sportscar statistics.
the reason that numbers fluctuate at State level is a budgetary issue, many of this cars are extremely quick and not running supercar type budgets,problems see them being withdrawn from a meeting. This can be in the period leading up to a meeting or with problems from Friday on.To give you another example at State level the Sports Sedans have a huge attrition rate. The faster the cars the higher the attrition.
The point I made about Sandown is that the best part of 100 sportscars were entered and that a track density of 42 is about 21/2 grids-- pretty good in real terms and the fact is that the split up of classes works very well in reality. It still leaves room for more if they choose.