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10 Mar 2010, 15:18 (Ref:2648955) | #76 | |||
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If Autosport had got this right, then that seems to suggest either that Grice/Roadways/Alan Docking both had access to a second car and repaired/rebuilt the original.... ....unless, of course, the other car O'Brien tested was one of the HDT pair- we know that at least one of those must have been in the UK/Europe as late as Sept '86 for Clenand/Woodman to use it at the TT. I guess one of the keys to answering this is knowing roughly when the deal for O'Brien to run the VK was done... |
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10 Mar 2010, 18:42 (Ref:2649075) | #77 | ||
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It was from a preview of a Thundersaloon season, either for '90 or '91. A Commodore was due to come out (and duly did), and it was noted as being a car tested by O'Brien but ultimately unused in the BTCC. I think you've commented on the thread, actually - we were comparing wheels, colours, trim etc between pictures of the BTCC, ETC and Thundersaloon cars.
I've swapped PM's with an ex-ADR mechanic who says that he doesn't remember Mike testing another Commodore, but that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't do so. |
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11 Mar 2010, 00:40 (Ref:2649293) | #78 | ||
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The car being rebuilt is the more likely of the two options. I don't think the shoestring budget would have stretched to the building and shipping-over of another car, or even a re-shelling of the crashed car.
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13 Mar 2010, 14:07 (Ref:2651030) | #79 | ||
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So far we've established that the red car ran as #69 at Brands (R7) for Alex Moss, possibly again at Donington (R9) for Tony Dron (not sure of any proof for Dron having #69 on the red car- can't find pic or programme reference at the moment) and as #67 for Hodgetts/Needell at the Oulton 1-hour race (R10- source is a pic posted by Gregor Marshall in the Corolla thread). Looking through the 14 May 1987 issue of Autosport, there's an advertising feature in the Classified ads for suspension and brake specialists- illustrated with a pic of a CHMS Corolla, in characteristic 2-wheels-off-the-ground pose....It's one of the white cars, carrying 'Toyota GB' and 'Mineral Improvements' signwriting, and #67. Given the date of the magazine, it has to be one of the early rounds, Silverstone, Oulton or Thruxton in April, so driver presumbly either Paul Longfield, Alan Minshaw, Alex Moss or Chuck Nicholson who appeared in one of those early races. According to Autosport, Longfield drove the red car at Silverstone, and possibly again at Thruxton, which narrows it down a little.... |
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16 Mar 2010, 20:33 (Ref:2653726) | #80 | ||
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I had a chat with Alan Docking this morning and the Grice Chickadee car in 1986 was definitely rebuilt and not replaced.
Which might explain why the bl**dy thing was always so hard to set up - it wasn't straight! |
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16 Mar 2010, 22:25 (Ref:2653802) | #81 | ||
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Great stuff Alfie, that answers a number of questions there I think.
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7 Apr 2010, 10:47 (Ref:2668155) | #82 | |
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8 Apr 2010, 15:27 (Ref:2668907) | #83 | |||
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The actual magazine it came with (I suspect the supplement went to press earlier) had a piece- headlined something like'What's Tom up to now?'- suggesting a TWR Commodore was a probable entry for the BTCC race. Apparently they'd tested at Snetterton the previous week. However, the Autosport report went on to speculate that the Holden was actually going to the Nurburgring WTCC race instead. Curiously, the article is illustrated with a pic of a plain white VK with a TWR sunstrip on the windscreen, rather than the blue/yellow VL actually raced... The magazine also reports another absentee from the entry outlined in the preview- James Kaye in a Corolla. Apparently, the car was being leased from rally driver Darrell Staniforth, but it got wrapped round a tree on a rally in Wales the previous weekend, and Kaye was presumably unable to source an alternative car (Autosport mentioned the possiblity of an Astra/Kadett instead) in time Last edited by KA; 8 Apr 2010 at 15:33. |
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13 Apr 2010, 19:10 (Ref:2672223) | #84 | |||
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The early TWR VL's were in that blue/yellow Herbie Clips livery, but that was in ready to race spec? This white car is signficant as it kind of suggests that it was a car that had already been campaigned prior to TWR testing it? A Les Small car was mentioned, but there's nothing to say that TWR didn't buy a Brock chasis and respray it! What I don't understand is why on earth TWR didn't get one or 2 cars out in some BTCC rounds just to get some hard mileage into them or get some early understanding of how these cars worked, after all the VL wouldn't have been greatly different from a VK all told. |
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14 Apr 2010, 18:14 (Ref:2672767) | #85 | |
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I'd certainly like to know where and when the pic was taken. I don't think I remember seeing any pics of the blue/yellow 'Herbie Clips' VL before the Nurnburgring WTCC report- although pics taken around the time of the aborted Monza WTCC entry at the start of the year certainly appeared in the Australian press- IIRC someone posted one on here, showing a pair of VLs in the blue/yellow scheme lined up in front of a TWR transporter.
As I said in the previous post, the pic shows a plain white (or at least light-coloured- it's a b/w pic) VK with no signwriting other than a TWR sticker on the sunstrip. No idea who the driver is- he's wearing a plain helmet as far as I can see. Interestingly, the car appears to have additional brake ducts cut into the front spoiler- there seem to be two round holes outboard of the rectangular intake slot in the VK front spoiler. The pic caption is 'A Walkinshaw Holden Commodore is due to appear this weekend- but where?' The article is headlined 'What's Tom up to now?' and reads: As we suggested last week, Tom Walkinshaw has declared his intention to enter one of his VL-spec Holden Commodores in the Dunlop BTCC event supporting this weekend's GP at Silverstone. Walkinshaw and his crew took a second day trip to Snetterton on Monday to give the car further running time. A darker rumour, however, suggests that Tom's GP entry is an elaborate double bluff, and that one of the 4.9 litre Commodore will actually turn up at the Nurbrgring this weekend, for the fourth round of the FIA World Touring Car Championship. By the time you read this, we should know for certain....' (Autosport 9 July 1987) There's also a short Nurburgring WTCC preview piece which mentions 'a possibility, it seems, that 'TWR might appear with one of its Holden Commodores' The outline of the GP support entry in the GP Preview supplement issued with the magazine mentions the TWR Rover entry fo Jeff Allam, but no TWR Commodore The magazine (9th July issue) has several other reports on the GP meeting entry, as well as the one covering the withdrawal of James Kayes' Corolla entry: The CHMS Corolla entry would be increased to 3, with the addition of a third car for Will Hoy, joining Hodgetts and Andrew Bagnall. (In the end, only two cars ran, for Hodgetts and Hoy) First pic of Sytner's Prodrive M3, shaken down at Snetterton and Silverstone the previous week Additional sponsorship for Win Percy in Andy Rouse's ICS Sierra and the extension of Karl Jones' Duckhams sponsorship to cover an outing at the GP meeting in a Group A Escort RS Turbo- the Asquith team were 'negotiating the availability of a pukka Group A machine' at the beginning of the week Last edited by KA; 14 Apr 2010 at 18:26. |
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14 Apr 2010, 18:33 (Ref:2672777) | #86 | ||
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Could TWR have done a deal with Brock via Cleland/Fall (reference to your Commodore thread post KA) to lease or buy the TT Woodman Commodore to use as their '87 test hack?
Last edited by chunterer; 15 Apr 2010 at 09:16. |
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15 Apr 2010, 07:27 (Ref:2672988) | #87 | ||
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I need someone to refresh my memory on this, but was the VL actually homologated in 1987? I'm not sure that it was.
IIRC the VL and TWR's involvement emerged during 1987 when they were going to be developing homologation bits for the VK in order to make it more competitive against the Sierras, thus creating the VL. I seem to remember that these parts were not even available for the beginning of the 1988 season, causing some sensitivity. I can certainly remember Tom and his Commodore attending the Superprix in 1988 because he turned up with a road going RS500, which most Ford drivers took to be a warning that they had some homologation questions on these that he was going to put before the stewards. In the end I don't remember anything like that happening. (Sorry for mixing threads but I'm sure one will understand the implications). |
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15 Apr 2010, 08:24 (Ref:2673009) | #88 | |||
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15 Apr 2010, 09:57 (Ref:2673046) | #89 | ||
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http://img339.imageshack.us/i/twrvl87nn7.jpg/ TWR certainly seem to have had a pair of these at least, originally intended to be entered for the 1987 WTCC, but withdrawn at the last minute. The only race appearance in this spec by TWR was the Nurburgring WTCC outing, although at least a couple of other VLs did appear in Europe (most notably the Moffatt/Harvey Rothmans car which won the Monza WTCC opener after all of the M3s were disqualified), and of course plenty were seen in Australia. They also seem to have had at least one 1986-style VK, which was used in testing- though AFAIK converting a VK to a VL isn't difficult, as externally it's mainly the front panels that are different? The TWR-developed 'evolution' VL (I can never remember the 'official' designation for this model, something like 'VL Commodore SS Group A?') for 1988 with the big wing/spoiler kit is the one which, as you say, was delayed- IIRC wasn't it supposed to be homologated shortly after the beginning of the season, but finally appeared around August/September.... http://www.modifiedcarforums.com/blo..._wa11ki_01.jpg |
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15 Apr 2010, 10:14 (Ref:2673053) | #90 | |
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Quick recap, if it helps, of the Commodores I think were seen in the BTCC and ETCC/European rounds of the WTCC in 1986-8 (I'll leave out the cars seen at the Australian/NZ WTCC rounds to save confusion)
1986: Mobil HDT- 1x VK for Brock/Moffatt in early-season ETCC rounds- last seen at Spa, where a second car also appeared. One of these ran as a GM Dealer Sport entry for Cleland/Woodman at the TT in Spetember Roadways/Allan Grice- white car used by Allan Grice with various codrivers for much of the ETCC season- Badly shunted at Hockenheim and rebuilt, for sale by mid/late-season, then becomes the O'Brien BTCC car for 1987 1987: Allan Moffatt/Rothmans: single ex-Brock VL appeared in early WTCC rounds and Spa before the budget ran out- think this went back to Australia? Michel Delcourt/Serge Power?- single VL seen at some WTCC rounds- Spa and the TT at least Jeroen Hin/Playboy- single VL appeared at the Zolder ETCC round early-season and Spa. Leased by Vic Covey/Andrew Jeffrey for the TT. Brock/HDT/Mobil- brought a single VL over for Spa TWR- at least a couple of blue/yellow VLs- intended for the WTCC, but only one race appearance- single car at Nurburgring Alan Docking Racing- single ex-Grice VK for Mike O'Brien in the BTCC 1988: TWR- single 'Evolution' spec car eventually appears at the aborted Birmingham BTCC race and the TT, before being shipped to Australia for Bathurst Alan Docking Racing- single ex-Brock 1987-spec VL in the BTCC for Mike OBrien- updated to the 1988 TWR-spec once it's finally homologated around August Is that all of them (I'm leaving out any only seen in rallycross, Thundersaloons or anywhere else outside the BTCC/ETCC/WTCC, or only raced in Australia) Last edited by chunterer; 15 Apr 2010 at 12:25. Reason: couple of amendments in Italics for your help KA |
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17 Apr 2010, 14:57 (Ref:2674288) | #91 | |
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A little more on the Silverstone GP support entry- it featured several Renault 5 Turbos in Class C, in addition to the Roger Saunders car that had been a championship regular for most of the season.
A bit more detail on one of these, Alex Postan's car, from an advert in Autosport around the end of the '87 season (Didn't take a note of the date when I scanned it, and don't have the original to hand) 'Renault 5GT Turbo Currently in Group A spec, as raced at British GP. The car is for sale together with all the equipment needed to run in Group A, Renault 5 Turbo Challenge, or production saloons. Race at the Tourist Trophy, all the long-distance Uniroyal rounds and collect start money in the Renault series. The price of 6250 includes the following spares: engine, rollcage, 3 sets struts, 3 sets springs, 20 wheels, 2 turbos, management system, carb, exhaust manifold and about 50 good tyres of all types. Finance available, or will part exchange for a good Class B F3 car or Class A touring car. Phone Alex Postan (London number)' There's a (small) pic which looks as if it might have been taken at the GP meeting (there appear to be Dunlop BTCC race number backgrounds on the door), showing a light-coloured car, with sponsorship from 'Autotech Cars' and 'Abbey Life'. The race number appears to be '58' |
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17 Apr 2010, 22:19 (Ref:2674506) | #92 | ||
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I apologise for my laziness, I am keen to help out and plug in any gaps. I don't have much time to go through the whole thread, but could anyone point out which race results that need completing or filling in?
I got 1986-1990 Motoring News newspapers and I got it with me now. Thank you. |
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18 Apr 2010, 16:03 (Ref:2675032) | #93 | |
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I've already been through the Motoring News reports for a few of these, but I know there are still some gaps.
I've done Rounds 2 (Oulton, 17/4/87), 3 (Thruxton 20/4/87) and 4 (Thruxton 25/5/87), so they should be fairly complete Round 1 might be worth a look (Silverstone 12/4/87) to see if it gives any details for the three drivers who didn't start the race-
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18 Apr 2010, 16:21 (Ref:2675051) | #94 | |
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From then on, we should have Round 5 completed, but still need some of the following:
Round 6- Silverstone GP support- 12/7/87. All qualifying times/grid, plus race times/laps completed for anyone outside about the top 15. Round 7- Brands 26/7/87. Race times, grid and qualifying times. Does the race report give any indication of the entrants for the various Renault 5 Turbos? Drivers were David Grimshaw, Niki Philips, Les Germain, Anthony Pownall and Alex Postan. Postan probably entered by AutoTech Cars if it's mentioned Round 8- (Snetterton 2/8/87) Round 9- (Donington 16/8/87) Round 10- Oulton Park 1hr (22/8/87) Round 11- Donington (20/9/87) Round 12- Silverstone (6/10/87)- Think these should all be OK Thanks!!!! |
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24 May 2010, 19:55 (Ref:2697415) | #95 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Staying with the theme of filling in gaps of race numbers, entrants, sponsors etc, here's an overview of the 1987 entry- This one will get a bit complicated with a two-driver race at Oulton and practically everyone on earth turning out in a Hodgetts Corolla at some point....
Class A
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24 May 2010, 20:05 (Ref:2697429) | #96 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Class B
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24 May 2010, 20:17 (Ref:2697439) | #97 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Class C
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24 May 2010, 20:34 (Ref:2697450) | #98 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Class D
I'm still trying to work out the permutations of driver, car colour and race number for the CHMS Corollas.... Last edited by KA; 24 May 2010 at 20:40. |
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3 Nov 2011, 14:40 (Ref:2981105) | #99 | |
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Some photos from the 1987 GP support by Robert Clayson on Flickr
I've already posted links to the Sierra pics (Win Percy in the Rouse/ICS car, plus the prodsaloons of Mike Smith and Robb Gravett) in the RS500 thread, but there's also one of Frank Sytner's M3 http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertc...in/photostream and one of the Renault Cup cars that appeared in the BTCC race- Any idea who? http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertc...n/photostream/ |
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31 Jan 2015, 23:04 (Ref:3499566) | #100 | ||
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Here's a video of Win Percy winning Round 6 at Silverstone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHrq...BcWjogGFRwQf_r |
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