Europe In, Denver Out?

[mountainstar]

I'd say from champcars perspective they have a lot on their plate for this year: new car, new tv deal, new engine badging partner, new events, etc. With the DNC convention looming in 2008 at the Pepsi center I think this is an issue champcar could do without at the moment and while I am ticked the decision was made as it was, it is probably better to find a proper promoter/sponsor/calendar date than cobble something together half assed for 2007 and then have problems for 2008 anyways.

Whether the race was profitable or not would not have mattered with Centrix going bankrupt for reasons completely unrelated to the race(you can find this info in the denver post archives if so inclined). If Centrix was still trucking along it would probably be business as usual(dnc convention excepted).

In any case, especially in 2005, it was a successful event with a lot of potential. So one hopes it returns in 2009 stronger than ever. It will be missed.

Laguna Seca and Road Atlanta are being discussed as replacements FOR THIS YEAR.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

Are John and Indy a tag team??

What would it be without them?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Snrub

mountainstar is correct in stating that we don't know for a fact that the Denver race lost money in '06, but as has been pointed out it was likely.

If a loss occured, the next question is how much of a loss? Let's say CC lost a couple hundred $ks on the race. That might be worth continuing from a long term perspective. After all it takes a lot of effort to create a successful event. Throwing something out after a number of years throws away all of that old effort. Granted one shouldn't chase good money after bad, so it should have been dropped if it didn't appear likely that the event would be profitable in the future.

It seems like a number of CC races have been cancled for combinations of reasons. eg. A race isn't highly profitable and other factors come into play. The other issue is that when the series keeps starting up races and after a year or two move elsewhere it can potentially cost them money. An event is not likely to be profitable in its first year if the promoter has done a proper amount of promotion. I suspect that a number of these events must have money injected by the series to make it worth the promoter's while.

Also keep in mind other factors(politics for instance) can affect whether a race continues or not. As an example look at how many tracks the irl has raced at though their 10 year history that they no longer run at.

[carsten66]

Interesting point to note, Steve Johnson's statement regarding Denver, the anouncement is talking about a postponement and not a cancellation – that indicates that CCWS and/or KK own the rights and that they are working on plans to give the race a future. Particularly with regard to his statement where he is underlining that CCWS invested a lot into the growth of this race and that it is still important to Champcar...

[luke]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

Are John and Indy a tag team??

[indycool]

If it was as good as Johnson was quoted as saying in the news release, they'd run.

[Last2LiftOff]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

Are John and Indy a tag team??

Norman, forgive me, with all due respect, I think other than maybe some entertainment value, this post lacks any sort of real contribution to what has otherwise been a pretty good discussion, I was quite enjoying it.

But, good grief, who am I to judge? Carry on if you like.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

Are John and Indy a tag team??

Let's remember to not attack posters. I note that while John and IC stick to details and facts, those who sit on the other side of the fence are attempting to diminish the source rather than addressing the details. IMO it weakens their stance considerably.

[Snrub]

I'm not a big fan of Steve Johnson, he's always over spinnng and hyping things. One of the refreshing things that occured when KK took over was that they were being more realistic and information seemed to flow more openly. I can't be sure, but the series seems to be going back a little more the other way. Even now when you read or hear something from KK it seems more legitimate than what comes from Johnson.

An interesting point is raised above about Laguna Seca. If Mazda did become the engine sponsor, would they insist upon the CC and Atlantics returning to the track. If not surely they would be in favor of it.

[Baritone2400]

This looks like a great reason to change the date to Miller Motorsports Park does anyone agree?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

I note that while John and IC stick to details and facts,

I would say opinions being stated as facts is what it is. For instance no one truly knows the financial details of the denver race, yet it is stated in a factual way "denver is losing money".

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Baritone2400

This looks like a great reason to change the date to Miller Motorsports Park does anyone agree?

Sounds like they are looking at other options to replace the race. I wouldn't have a problem with Miller Park.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I would say opinions being stated as facts is what it is. For instance no one truly knows the financial details of the denver race, yet it is stated in a factual way "denver is losing money".

As you said in another thread, "Logic would assume the reason why champcar did not renew it's race in Denver was for a good fiscal reason, not a bad one."

Goose - gander

If you want to refute the opinion, call it out, but calling out the user is not only poor arguing, it's explicitly against the rules on ten-tenths.

Consider that.

[norman-normal]

Paul, I was asking a question about tactics. It seems that they are employing mutual "first aid" when the other is hurting. Could be my over active imagination? (another question)

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

Paul, I was asking a question about tactics. It seems that they are employing mutual "first aid" when the other is hurting.

And the other side doesn't defend each other when their positions are similar?

Look, it's easy. Debunk the myths, address and arrange the facts to your own satisfaction, and we'll let the stronger argument stand.

[Last2LiftOff]

Dog gone it, my apologies to the group and to you Norman for my earlier post. Nothin' seemed to kill this thread faster and that was certainly not my intention, its been some really great discussion. I could've seen that coming.

Rookie mistake, won't happen again.

[Last2LiftOff]

This shamelessly stolen from Fogelhund in another CCWS thread.

I'm one of the ones not familiar with Mr. Wilke but I strongly agree with this statement. Likewise, how on earth does CCWS expect to succeed in Europe where there are not two 'but a hundred and two' OWS is beyond me.

[JohnSSC]

I believe in a long ago thread I likened CC's approach to the old Rollerderby (or Joie Chitwood's Thrill Show). You know, "The Bay City Bombers vs The Jammers at the Johnstown War Memorial Arena." The Bombers never were ever really "home" as they just went town to town in barnstorming mode. It just becomes a travelling road show with no roots or rootedness or any sense of a geographic center of operations.

GF and KK own the engine supplier, most of the cars, the Series, promotion rights at many venues plus the naughty bits needed to run a race. For the right price, they will show up in your town.

A bit harsh, but that is what it is starting to look like. I think the more important question regarding the Euro Tour is: "What will happen next year?" Wil Europe still be on the schedule or will Ansan take one of the dates?

[mountainstar]

Well that's no different John than any music group, race series, circus, etc.

[JohnSSC]

No, it is different. Each of those things you mention has a fanbase or core audience if you will, but the common thread there is entertainment rather than "sporting event."

Racing series typically have a geographic region where the events occur on a regular basis (see NASCAR or F1) during a particular time of the year. There is a "solidity" to them, if you will. The EPL would not be the EPL if random football teams just showed up in various cities and then Man U played the team du jour and moved along to the next town.

Your use of a rock group but particularly the circus is closer to what CC seems to be moving to: an entertainment act (Motorock lives on in a sense) that comes to town and leaves a few days later. There is nothing really that "anchors" the Series in our consciousness.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Your use of a rock group but particularly the circus is closer to what CC seems to be moving to: an entertainment act (Motorock lives on in a sense) that comes to town and leaves a few days later. There is nothing really that "anchors" the Series in our consciousness.

Absolutely agree, however they are doing what they can do to survive. Thats what all AOW are trying and street race festivals are most popular at the moment.

[Last2LiftOff]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

There is nothing really that "anchors" the Series in our consciousness.

Like the Indy 500, say, as just one example John, prior to the split? I think they recognised that as shortly thereafter a few of the Champcar teams were allowed back in, but hardly the same. That 'cachet' if you will, is golden, but all too often taken for granted by those responsible. Almost like greed gets in the way. I think Bernie'd do well to remember that going forward (as a lousy reference in a CCWS thread).

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

No, it is different. Each of those things you mention has a fanbase or core audience if you will, but the common thread there is entertainment rather than "sporting event."
(snip)
Your use of a rock group but particularly the circus is closer to what CC seems to be moving to: an entertainment act (Motorock lives on in a sense) that comes to town and leaves a few days later. There is nothing really that "anchors" the Series in our consciousness.

The reason this is important is that the eyeballs at the track have proven to be insufficient to warrant national level sponsorship. It's precisely because people watch it as a serial that companies such as McDonalds or Motorola would like to be involved.

Rock shows are static sets (mostly) shown to multiple live audiences, but how much viewership would they have if a whole tour were televised? I doubt people would tune in to 17 concerts in a row in significant numbers for all but the most popular acts. (Pearl Jam's 72 official bootlegs from 2000-2001 being an example counter to my assertion, but no one would argue that Pearl Jam and Champcar have ever occupied the same circles of fame)

[indycool]

There's a line out there somewhere between sports and entertainment that may be different for each individual.

But, as John said, the Bay Area Bombers, the Harlem Globetrotters, concerts, "bigtime rasslin'," even in this context the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds and the like are entertainment, a show, an exhibition and their schedules are pretty irregular.

When it comes to sports, Major League Baseball plays 162 games a year. Each team plays 81 at home, 81 on the road. The schedule is known far in advance. Other than a few interleague games at midseason, the Chicago White Sox play American League teams and the Chicago Cubs play National League teams. The NFL teams play 16 games before playoffs, eight at home and eight on the road (by the way, it's already known who each team plays home and road in '07 but the dates haven't been announced yet).

That stability in a competitive sports atmosphere is a big asset. NASCAR's GENERAL schedule stability, i.e., the Daytona 500, the Bristol night race, etc., year after year helps its overall presentation a great deal.

[norman-normal]

You seem to be trying to tell us: if we had one big event with big attendance and a bunch of others Even if we have to give away tickets to make the stands look half full (or half empty?); we would be better off?

Well what if that one big event starts losing fans and contestants? What if we needed subsidize retired drivers to fill up the grid? Would that wonderful?

Champ Car World Series is moving foreword.