2014 Toyota Racing Series Season

[Blackpearl]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Wow! That's more expensive than V8ST charge their teams for a much bigger, tyre, and in our experience with the V8ST Prototype program, a better tyre than the Michelin's we tested.

Maybe they should have put the tyre contract out to tender, because based again on my V8ST experience, they could have got equally good if not better tyres than what they have ended up with for about $1200 plus GST.

How much does supertourers charge at the track for fitting them? cost will equal out

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Blackpearl

How much does supertourers charge at the track for fitting them? cost will equal out

Unless things have changed, V8ST never charged the Teams the fitting, balancing costs, however those teams that used the trackside support usually paid $25 per tyre.

What I am not at liberty to tell you or anybody else for that matter is what V8ST pay Hankook for the tyres.

I can however tell you if you dont all ready know that CMC competitors only pay $265 each for their Hankook tyres.

[Blackpearl]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Unless things have changed, V8ST never charged the Teams the fitting, balancing costs, however those teams that used the trackside support usually paid $25 per tyre.

What I am not at liberty to tell you or anybody else for that matter is what V8ST pay Hankook for the tyres.

I can however tell you if you dont all ready know that CMC competitors only pay $265 each for their Hankook tyres.

Nice play, what support does hankook do?

Simple billm for a v8st weekend depending on what they can find to do them is 500, no wonder m3 have there own machine at the track.

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by raymond

...or maybe it's just Toyota preferring one supplier over another?

That could be a diplomatic way of saying the same thing perhaps. Who made that decision then - the management team running the series or Head Office?

If you were to create a new class, and were responsible for promoting it and ensuring it's success, would it not make commercial sense to offer prospective buyers the best value achievable at the lowest cost to ensure maximum appeal. And therefore derive sales to meet target. Hasn't the "we'll build 'em and they'll buy 'em" arrogance left them a little exposed?

And how did they manage to obtain National Championship status for a handful of cars. Did someone over-promise things a little?

It's as daft as the whole TLX debacle. What do they have, five cars?

I'm not too impressed to be honest.

[DX20VT]

Michelin already do all the tyres etc for the TRS
so would make some sort of sense to use them for TR86 as well.

[blizard]

Originally Posted by DX20VT

Michelin already do all the tyres etc for the TRS
so would make some sort of sense to use them for TR86 as well.

I guess it does make cents...

[Blackpearl]

Originally Posted by raymond

...or maybe it's just Toyota preferring one supplier over another?

Or its the case of MSNZ bending over and getting a blow because its toyota.

Do as we say.

[raymond]

Originally Posted by Blackpearl

Or its the case of MSNZ bending over and getting a blow because its toyota.

Do as we say.

Honestly?? Surely you are capable of intelligent conversation?

[JamesK]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

And how did they manage to obtain National Championship status for a handful of cars. Did someone over-promise things a little?

From what I can recall a few years ago posted on MSNZ's web site, to obtain championship status a class was expected to field 15 cars and had to have run the series for a minimum of 1 or 2 years prior to consideration. No doubt to prove its worth.
Anything less than 15 cars was at the discretion of the Exec.
Was my understanding correct ?

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by JamesK

From what I can recall a few years ago posted on MSNZ's web site, to obtain championship status a class was expected to field 15 cars and had to have run the series for a minimum of 1 or 2 years prior to consideration. No doubt to prove its worth.
Anything less than 15 cars was at the discretion of the Exec.
Was my understanding correct ?

That sounds about right to me. The Swifts had to run in Production Class A (as I remember) in amongst all the other production cars before they were recognised with their own class and National Championship. How different things are for the "high and mighty".

[GT 86]

Unfortunately OTI people are voting with their feet and wallets. Toyota have made an error here and overpriced this car in more ways than one, helping mates could be a good term as well as restricting its use for other events other than the 86 series.

The same gos for V8ST. We all know the initial category management had an in house tender system for parts much to somes disbelief and to be frank a lot of these decisions were wrong. Engine, gearbox, shocks, radiators, sump upgrades etc could have done better first time and as we know these guys are voting with their feet and wallets. Helping mates and family again here.

If these people used their brain and not their balls more often and realised that competitors arent made of money and arent stupid like they think they are then motorsport would be a better place for it.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by JamesK

From what I can recall a few years ago posted on MSNZ's web site, to obtain championship status a class was expected to field 15 cars and had to have run the series for a minimum of 1 or 2 years prior to consideration. No doubt to prove its worth.
Anything less than 15 cars was at the discretion of the Exec.
Was my understanding correct ?

The actual section in MSNZ's Towards 2020 documents is :

Prior to Championship status application a class should have competed the previous season as a Sanctioned or Challenge Series and should have demonstrated the ability to have a minimum number of vehicles contesting the series as provided for in the Class Agreement.

The number of vehicles doesn't seem to have been defined but historically and in others parts of the document, 15 cars is a figure used.

It is presumed this criteria has been established for a good reason - presumably so that a class can prove its credentials before it is granted Championship status. This is consistent with MSNZ's President being on record as saying Championship status represents the pinnacle of NZ motor sport.

The TR86 class doesn't seem to have met MSNZ's criteria (which seems mandatory with the use of the word "should").

Unfortunately with so few car turning up in this Championship class it has turned out to be an unfortunate example of the so-called pinnacle of NZ motor sport. A cynic could say - if this represents the pinnacle, what is the rest off the sport like?

No doubt MSNZ's relationship with Toyota (who should be applauded for their contribution to the sport) has influenced MSNZ to make a rash decision to ignore their own criteria.

[CDM]

Originally Posted by RogerH

Prior to Championship status application a class should have competed the previous season as a Sanctioned or Challenge Series and should have demonstrated the ability to have a minimum number of vehicles contesting the series as provided for in the Class Agreement.

The TR86 class doesn't seem to have met MSNZ's criteria (which seems mandatory with the use of the word "should").

"Should" definitely doesn't make it mandatory. The word "will" would make it mandatory. I should obey the speed limit vs. I will obey the speed limit.

Prior to Championship status application a class WILL have competed the previous season as a Sanctioned or Challenge Series and WILL have demonstrated the ability to have a minimum number of vehicles contesting the series as provided for in the Class Agreement.

But lets be fair MSNZ do need some discretion in matters like this, otherwise there would be no new classes get off the ground. The proof of the pudding I guess is when classes continue to get a status they do not deserve...

[socram]

Originally Posted by CDM

But lets be fair MSNZ do need some discretion in matters like this, otherwise there would be no new classes get off the ground. The proof of the pudding I guess is when classes continue to get a status they do not deserve...

That discretion is fine if it only affects one class on the programme, but over the last few years, we have seen the so called pinnacle of NZ motorsport televised with less than 15 cars on a grid far more often than more than 15 cars.

Because of that, casual spectators are not going to be attracted to a race meeting.

We are a small country yet we can get over 200 cars at several classic meetings but we can't get 15 cars on a grid at premier meetings, so which should be the real premier classes? Those with manufacturers supporting a handful of cars, or those where grids are good, even if the cars are not currently in production?

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by CDM

"Should" definitely doesn't make it mandatory. The word "will" would make it mandatory. I should obey the speed limit vs. I will obey the speed limit.
…..
But lets be fair MSNZ do need some discretion in matters like this, otherwise there would be no new classes get off the ground. The proof of the pudding I guess is when classes continue to get a status they do not deserve...

We are probably getting into the semantics of english language but I would think that "should" is a lot more prescriptive than the likes of "could"or "may".

As far as getting classes off the ground, it seems that MSNZ's regime is to start as a sanctioned or challenge series and then move onto championship status. The TR86 class is not the first MSNZ championship class that has gone straight to championship status with resultant low grid numbers.

[promax]

Originally Posted by socram

we have seen the so called pinnacle of NZ motorsport televised with less than 15 cars on a grid far more often than more than 15 cars.

and that class is?

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by promax

and that class is?

NZV8's collectively last year, and the TLX class since its inception.

[promax]

pretty sure TRS is higher up the ladder these days.

[Blackpearl]

Originally Posted by raymond

Honestly?? Surely you are capable of intelligent conversation?

I can be, but after dealing with msnz i stand by my comment.

[JamesK]

Originally Posted by promax

pretty sure TRS is higher up the ladder these days.

It's just a shame the TRS series caters mainly for overseas drivers, I would assume the costs to compete the full series prohibits local entrants.
You would then question why the TRS would be classed as the top Motorsport category in NZ when the majority go competitors are from overseas.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Blackpearl

I can be, but after dealing with msnz i stand by my comment.

'Blackpearl' At least they can't identify you so you have no need to fear their collective wrath.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

I don't think "the drive" has ever been in question. But the gearbox issue is of concern for many in the class, trust me on that. Aside from that they are considered, by more than a few, to be very expensive at $78k plus GST, and by the time you buy tyres, pay the Series Registration and entry fees (plus all the other bits we know cost extra money), you are paying quite a bit to run in a series that (correct me if I'm wrong) has at best had nine cars at any one round. There are only five drivers that have competed at all rounds, so it's not exactly well supported is it.

And why you might ask!

That is a surprise. I know these cars in the USA and UK have been ragged with thousands of laps on them with no gearbox issues I've heard of so I am not sure what exactly is going on there.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by GT 86

Unfortunately OTI people are voting with their feet and wallets. Toyota have made an error here and overpriced this car in more ways than one, helping mates could be a good term as well as restricting its use for other events other than the 86 series.

The same gos for V8ST. We all know the initial category management had an in house tender system for parts much to somes disbelief and to be frank a lot of these decisions were wrong. Engine, gearbox, shocks, radiators, sump upgrades etc could have done better first time and as we know these guys are voting with their feet and wallets. Helping mates and family again here.

If these people used their brain and not their balls more often and realised that competitors arent made of money and arent stupid like they think they are then motorsport would be a better place for it.

were these not the same reasoning behind NZST being created......... because NZV8 had priced them selves out of the market ??

[promax]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

were these not the same reasoning behind NZST being created......... because NZV8 had priced them selves out of the market ??

I see another ST for sale.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

were these not the same reasoning behind NZST being created......... because NZV8 had priced them selves out of the market ??

V8ST was created because the majority of the serious NZV8 team owner's/drivers felt shafted by TMC, when TMC reneged on the travel fund and other shared income payments, amounting to sum $163,000.

As a direct consequence of that ugly dispute, TMC terminated the Joint Venture Company NZV8 Limited, that they owned 50% of, along with VEEGA, the car owners, within days of VEEGA invoked a formal dispute provision of its JV with TMC.

You can dress it up any way you want, but the facts are the fact's.