MSV F3 Cup

[qwertyuiop]

I am thinking this is a great series.
I've seen a number of cars for sale with a variety of engines.
I wonder which combination of engine and car would be the best option.
Any thoughts?

[tristancliffe]

Don't really think it matters which chassis that much. The 02-04 and 05-07 cars are very similar in performance. The 07 has a little more downforce, but the 02 has a bit less drag. And the engines are much of a muchness too really - Mugen, VW, Merc, Speiss. There are differences, but at club level the driver will have a far bigger impact.

[qwertyuiop]

Thanks for that. I was wondering more about the Toyota Piedrafita engine.
I have heard it is considerably heavier than the above engines and maybe lacks a little in power/torque.

[andrewc]

The Toyota is heavier than a Mugen for example, but not by as much as some people speculate.

As it has a larger restrictor it will rev higher, and possibly has a higher peak power figure. This can be seen in speed trap data showing these engines consistently quickest in a straight line suggesting power being superior.

I have access to data showing the rate of acceleration being pretty consistent as well (same track, same gearing), suggesting torque characteristics being closer than imagined as well.

Balance is going to be the main difference which comes down to setup.

[tristancliffe]

The Toyota, with all the relevant ancillaries, is 14kg heavier than a Mugen. Some people (who are 20kg lighter than me) claimed it was 30kg, but actually enjoyed a weight advantage.

The Toyota has more power, but the torque is spread over a larger rev range - what you lose in torque output, you gain back pretty much in gearing, particularly with a lighter driver that isn't penalised by the extra weight.

A certain future F1 driver was consistently slower in a Mugen than in their own Peidrafita car, despite plenty of tests to perfect the setup. Make of that what you will.

In the wet, the Toyota is a distinct advantage because of the softer power delivery (spread over more RPM).

[qwertyuiop]

Thanks for the two replies.
I guess, as Tristan said,l the driver is the deciding factor.
Is there indication of numbers this year?

[qwertyuiop]

I see 11 cars for the first race. Having been to Brands on the media day I have to say the cars look fantastic. I would love to join in.
Anybody car to predict the top 3?

[andrewc]

1. Dallara
2. Dallara
3. Dallara

[qwertyuiop]

Ha ha!

[qwertyuiop]

Well you were correct andrewc.
I'm not sure I would have predicted which Dallara came first, second and third though.

[RobManser]

Could I ask a few questions about these cars please? The running costs mentioned earlier (race entry fees, fuel, tyres etc) seemed reasonable, but I did notice a £17k engine rebuild mentioned at one point! Could anyone elaborate on that? Do people rebuild their own engines at home as with lower formulae, or is this strictly engine builder territory? How many hours use do people normally get between rebuilds?

What are spares availability and costs like?

Finally, one of the reasons I quit racing was that I just didn't fit in the cars properly and I found that it seriously got in the way of going faster (or safety for that matter). What are the later carbon tubbed F3 cars like for space? I've always hoped they'd have more room that the mid to late 90s single seaters that I used to drive. I'm only 1.77m (5'10") and just under 70kg, but have very long legs and wide feet and I always struggled - quite often my feet were getting stuck in the pedal box (not nice at the end of a straight!), I often struggled to change gear and I was usually sat bolt upright.

I'm a few years away from having the money to return to racing just yet, but club F3 could be something for me to aim for in the future. I'd be thinking of what I always used to do, which was 4 or 5 races a year tops and a few tests, just to keep the costs down.

[andrewc]

In full F3 specification, the engine life is somewhere between 2500 and 5000 miles between rebuilds. Engines come from VW, Mercedes, Mugen Honda (Neil Brown), Opel Spiess, Toyota etc., You can easily eat up your engine mileage testing.

Some are prepared to sell parts for a rebuild, in which case you could do it yourself if you were prepared to do it. Others are not and will only work on the engine and want to break their seals themselves. This can be expensive, but the turnaround is quick and all you have to do is bolt it back in.

Remember if you get it wrong, the bills can be very big, but you have to have high standards of workmanship, finish and cleanliness as well as fastidious attention to detail.

Genuine Dallara parts can be expensive, but there is usually a selection of secondhand serviceable parts, or copied parts.

From 1999 the high cockpit sides were introduced with neck padding which allow more cockpit room for taller, broad shouldered drivers.

If you are uncomfortable about engine rebuilds, consider Monoposto - the same tub/chassis but with a road car derived engine. Secondhand engines - eg Toyota / Vauxhall - a hundred quid from a scrap yard and a DIY engine rebuild.

[tristancliffe]

The £17k was for a whole new engine, as the one mentioned went pop in a big way (holes in lots of bits!). A rebuild is between £6k and £12k depending on who does it, which engine and what's required. Some can be done at home, others have to be sent to the engine builder. Most engines seem to be rated between 2500km and 4000km, but the long life Toyota engines are around 10000km. To put that into perspective, a meeting is roughly 220km, with a further 200km if you did Friday testing. So that's 10-20 meetings depending on engine/testing, which is 1.5 to 2 seasons.

Spares and parts for the cars are relatively easy to come by, as lots can be bought directly from Dallara (at Dallara prices), but more and more people are making pattern parts like wishbones and wings.

The later cars with cockpit surround padding have loads of room, so a 5'10" 70kg driver will easily fit, even with long legs. We struggled with a 6'6" 100kg ex-bodybuilder though.

[RobManser]

Thanks for your replies.

[qwertyuiop]

Looking at this weekends Brutish F3 round at Spa it shows just how good the front runners in F3 cup are.
Sowery running with a 26mm restrictor and in an F305 quicker than some in much more powerfull and newer cars.
Would be good to see Sowery, Cliffe, Chart race in BF3.

[Lola]

Originally Posted by qwertyuiop

Looking at this weekends Brutish F3 round at Spa it shows just how good the front runners in F3 cup are.
Sowery running with a 26mm restrictor and in an F305 quicker than some in much more powerfull and newer cars.
Would be good to see Sowery, Cliffe, Chart race in BF3.

I agree

[Gary Corcoran]

I see the newer model cars are allowed in for 2015, what's everyone's take on this? Good idea or bad? Will it push down the price of 05-07 02-04 cars?

Gary

[poleman]

Hello. Anybody has an update on that series ? Will it be a full grid this year , because judging from the website, there are about 10 entrants so far...

[andrewc]

Not sure on expected grid sizes yet - but our driver will be there in a new car.

[Motorsportabuser]

It sounds like there might be some big changes for 2016. Should help to improve the grid sizes! I'm looking forward to seeing how it does!

[Formulahistory]

which changes?

[andrewc]

A new class for 2005 onwards cars with 'stock' 2000cc engines (to be clarified)

http://www.msvracing.co.uk/cars/news...-for-2016.aspx