Ralf's 10 Second Penalty

[Wrex]

About this start line incident - How hard did Ralf have to jump on the brakes if he still went into the 1st corner P2?

[Airhead]

Obviously not hard enough for my liking

[drexel]

Why is it so hard for people to admit that Michael just outclassed Ralf in that race. In fact it was RALF WHO CRACKED not Michael. It was the move he made entering the pits that won him the race. Michael fakes left, comes right, Ralf in Lala land, overshoots the pitstop, then breaks an exit line he was warned about only hours before. You can say it was a silly mistake but would he have done that if he wasn't in a fight with his brother, i think not.

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by drexel
Why is it so hard for people to admit that Michael just outclassed Ralf in that race. In fact it was RALF WHO CRACKED not Michael. It was the move he made entering the pits that won him the race. Michael fakes left, comes right, Ralf in Lala land, overshoots the pitstop, then breaks an exit line he was warned about only hours before. You can say it was a silly mistake but would he have done that if he wasn't in a fight with his brother, i think not.

And Ferrari helped by snitching on him with an e-mail to Charlie Whiting.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Valve Bounce
And Ferrari helped by snitching on him with an e-mail to Charlie Whiting.

And your source Valve, other than Frank 'suggesting' it may have occured, from one of the teams (McLaren were the big winners)?

[Gt_R]

Wait a minute... Ralf broke the rule...he ought to be punished...but now somebody is putting the blame on Ferrari for bringing that up to the authorities...?!!

[eatapc]

Originally posted by drexel
Why is it so hard for people to admit that Michael just outclassed Ralf in that race. In fact it was RALF WHO CRACKED not Michael. It was the move he made entering the pits that won him the race. Michael fakes left, comes right, Ralf in Lala land, overshoots the pitstop, then breaks an exit line he was warned about only hours before.

Words like "outclassed" are obviously flame bait, but I'll be a sucker and take the bait. MS drove a brilliant race, but class had nothing to do with it, and his win was hardly decisive given the controversial penalties (or lack thereof). The only thing classy about the race was Ralf's statements that "Rules are rules" and "I'd have done the same thing...."

If there is one thing this race taught me, it's that the cliche "rules are rules" doesn't apply to Formula 1. Yes, rules are rules, but unwritten rules are also rules, and unspoken rules may or may not be rules. There are penalties and then there are PENALTIES. The FIA remains inscrutable, press coverage is lazy, and that's what makes forums like this fun.

No one has come right out and said exactly what Charlie Whiting discussed at the driver's meeting, only that pit lane boundaries are always reviewed -- so let's stop assuming things. If you read Roger Horton's piece for Atlas F1, you'll notice that he doesn't attribute his info to anyone, nor does he give any specific details about the drivers' meeting in question. His information seems to apply to any drivers' meeting. His thoughts are perceptive, but pure speculation. He didn't interview Ralf, Alan Baldwin did.

Ralf himself had this to say about it: "I just think that imposing a 10-second penalty for crossing the white line at the pitlane exit was over the top. Sure, rules are rules and every driver has to respect them. But penalties should make sense. The white line is there to prevent cars leaving the pitlane from endangering others. There was no way I was a hazard to anybody because there was nobody on the start/finish straight as I was coming out of the pitlane."

I conclude that the penalty (10 second stop and go) was not specifically discussed, and therefore was imposed at the discretion of the stewards, with input from Charlie Whiting.

Michael's move to block Ralf at the start was against the written rules, but legal based on the unwritten "one move" rule. The debate is over whether MS made one move or two, first blocking Ralf, then blocking Montoya. Or was he just moving back over to the best racing line? And if so, is the "unwritten rule" one move, or one blocking move plus an extra move to get back on line? Perfectly reasonable people have come to opposite conclusions here.

3 things won MS the race, and his questionable move into the pits was not one of them: 1) his swerving at the start; 2) his setup change at the first pit stop; and 3) the penalty against Ralf. Ralf overshot his pit crew by a meter, which lost him a second, according to a crew member. Ferrari's pit stop was 1.3 seconds quicker; MS would have come out ahead anyway. If Michael's pit entry was legal, then its legality was based on yet another unwritten rule. Perhaps Whiting did not specifically point out the markings near the deceleration lane as being off limits. Is it the case that not reiterating a pitlane rule the same as anulling it? Only the FIA knows for sure.

[Don K]

Originally posted by eatapc
No one has come right out and said exactly what Charlie Whiting discussed at the driver's meeting, only that pit lane boundaries are always reviewed -- so let's stop assuming things.
...
I conclude that the penalty (10 second stop and go) was not specifically discussed, ...

So you are the only one who is allowed to make assumptions?

[eatapc]

Originally posted by Don K
So you are the only one who is allowed to make assumptions?

Busted. Actually, I was trying to draw a logical conclusion from the factual content of Ralf's interview. (That may be a distinction without a difference, but I don't think so.) To dispute my conclusion without firsthand sources, you would have to make assumptions about what took place at the drivers' meeting that are contrary to what is on the public record at this time. I.e., you could surmise that Charlie Whiting did tell the drivers that crossing the white line would result in a 10 second penalty, but that Ralf wasn't listening. But, as a lawyer would put it, that assumes facts not in evidence. The facts are that Ralf admits the mistake, but thinks the penalty "doesn't make sense." I agree with Ralf.

I did, admittedly, make a blatant assumption without evidence at the end of my last paragraph, where I talked about what Whiting may or may not have said concerning the pit entrance. I wish a reporter would interview Whiting or one of the drivers and ask a direct question about it. I also wish Whiting or the FIA would be more up front and open in the first place. (I can dream, can't I?)

[drexel]

3) the penalty against Ralf. Ralf overshot his pit crew by a meter, which lost him a second,

And why did he do that, BECAUSE HE WAS RATTLED. Unless it was just a stupid mistake, either way he CRACKED.

[eatapc]

Ralf was seething about the start, and he was POed that Michael ducked into the pits ahead of him. Overshooting his pit was a minor thing, and it didn't have any effect, in that Michael would have come out of the pits ahead of him anyway. He may have been distracted by his anger -- and who wouldn't have been? -- but I wouldn't say he cracked. MS proved again that he's not just a fast driver and a consistent driver, but a driver who more often than not finds a way to win under pressure. We don't have to knock Ralf in order to praise Michael; it's not a zero sum game.

[R]

Originally posted by EERO
Damn, you are good.

I make EERO's words mine.

[BBKing]

Ralf made a mistake, very stupid mistake and got what he deserved. However Barrichello and Schumi went over the same line and did not get the same penalty. We all know how FIA treats Ferrari. There is a non-written rule: if the car is red, let them get away with everything.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by BBKing
if the car is red, let them get away with everything.

I can't stand this cr*p anymore - this is getting old people

[Gt_R]

BBK...somebody showed a pic which clearly proved MS DID NOT CROSS THAT SAME LINE...so what's the problem with the FIA and Ferrari? Are we to punish MS because Ralf made a mistake??!!