Detroit, IRL Belle Island

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Yes, neither rocket surgery nor brain science...

However, since costs aren't published for any of the races, coming up with a number like $15 million is a t best a WAG.

ooops. looks like they are. right from Penske's mouth.

August 30, 2007 01:59 AM

http://m.freep.com/detail.jsp?key=101696&rc=bz&full=1

"Penske and the Belle Isle Grand Prix team spent about $16 million to transform Belle Isle for this event -- half for permanent structural improvements such as a concrete paddock, bridges and sewer repairs, and half for event-specific costs such as sanction fees and wiring for the media tent. A $100,000 donation will be made this year for the city-owned island park's maintenance, followed by $25,000 payments each of the next four years."

[climb]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

...However, since costs aren't published for any of the races, coming up with a number like $15 million is a t best a WAG.

That's what I wanted to read... well spotted John.

And one more point: costs must always be related to proceeds, which depends on the number of ticket sold, the price of them, and other revenues coming from sponsoring, TV rights, other economic supports etc.

Forgive me, I can be wrong, But the way some people here approach the economic analisys of races seems a bit simplistic to me.
Don't say false, just simplistic.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by deejay

I think it’s most likely his instinctual reaction was to try and get his car facing the right way down the track, keep the engine running, and at least minimise the damage of the spin.

What, by smashing the back of his car into the wall?

That sure limits the damage!

[NAC]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

ooops. looks like they are. right from Penske's mouth.

August 30, 2007 01:59 AM

http://m.freep.com/detail.jsp?key=101696&rc=bz&full=1

"Penske and the Belle Isle Grand Prix team spent about $16 million to transform Belle Isle for this event -- half for permanent structural improvements such as a concrete paddock, bridges and sewer repairs, and half for event-specific costs such as sanction fees and wiring for the media tent. A $100,000 donation will be made this year for the city-owned island park's maintenance, followed by $25,000 payments each of the next four years."

Well good on him (Penske), nice he is willing to stand up and push for events like this.

As for the attendance 0f 25,000 what was up with that. Apart from TV coverage money and other revenue gathering initiatives these events should be about bums on seats. Yes I know climb at the risk of being called someone with a simplistic view it doesn't really get any more simplistic than bums on seats keep events real for the future. Hell we can got more turn up to a local New Zealand series ie NZV8, Toyota Racing Series, F Ford, Mini's etc and we only have 4 mill living in the country.

Detroit is meant to be the capital of the motoring industry and it's in the US of A. My point here is if it's a seating issue build more platforms, if a marketing issue sack the marketers and bring in someone who can do the job. If it's something else get what ever that is sorted. 25k at an event won't be an event much longer.

[deejay]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

What, by smashing the back of his car into the wall?

That sure limits the damage!

Heh. Obviously he wouldn't have wanted to hit the wall, his car control was not good enough! The idea that he was trying to get the car facing the right way does not necessitate that he was successful in the endeavour!

[JohnSSC]

Do we have a link on attendance?

As far as the "cost" let's keep in mind that Penske put $8 million of the $16 million into permanent infrastructure improvement. Since he is planning on a 5 year run, than you have to amortize that over the 5 years.

Roger is another fellow who rarely spends money that is his without being reasonably sure of getting a return, than I am willing to go along with the notion that the Captain has a plan here.

Further, as far as attendance and costs, the "other" $8 million covered fees for the ALMS folks as well. So when we are talking attendance I think we need to see what it was for ALMS and IRL and then view the costs overall as being on the high side in order to accomodate ALMS and IRL.

At least we could try to be somewhat accurate and not characterize the $16 million as an expenditure for one race...

[mountainstar]

I think if it had cost $25 mil Penske would have done it. At this stage in his life, he seems to be taking a different direction with more involvement in community activites and I think he wanted a grand prix for detroit and he got it.

At the end of the day, $16 mil was thrown down to make it happen. Obviously some of costs will be amortized, but no different than champcar street races is it?

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Do we have a link on attendance?

http://blogs.indystar.com/racingexpert/

Well, first of all, Penske only has 25,000 grandstand seats to sell to the Detroit Grand Prix, and I know that because one of my spies counted all of the seats on Friday.

Does not elaborate if all were sold.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Roger is another fellow who rarely spends money that is his without being reasonably sure of getting a return, than I am willing to go along with the notion that the Captain has a plan here.

Well if Penske got a plan, lets all bow down. For a person who once described himself as "equally pessimistic" about both championships, your arguments seem to be extremely selective here when discussing street racing.

[JohnSSC]

No different than CC? Well, Penske did forget to shakedown the city for $2 million in cash for "expenses."

The other difference here is that Belle Isle was used for a number of years for racing rather than bringing the circus to town as "new" event.

Why do you think he would have spent $25 million? I did not see anything in the article indicating that he wanted to spend more.

As far as attendance, the overhead shots and track level shots all showed grandstands which seemed to be full. As far as your reaction to Penske having a plan, you can do whatever you want. It is not my suggestion that this is smart, a money-maker or the greatest thing since sliced bread. For a change we have some actual numbers to discuss and some candid observations by the promoter. In most of these cases we have a heck of time trying to figure out who the promoter is, let alone how much was spent, how many seats were sold and how much was made - if anything.

[JohnSSC]

As far as being "selective" goes - it is curious to me that the concern expressed by some of you all for the financial wisdom of doing street races seems only to apply to certain series and not to others...

Personally, as I have said before, neither series is doing all that great. At this moment, it would appear though that the IRL has more momentum as far as sponsors and does not seem to have the $$ problems, nor the internal turmoil as far as staff changeover that CC has. Further, at least at this point we know that Belle Isle is very likely to appear on the IRL schedule as more than yet another "TBA" that disappears from the schedule at some point.

[paul-collins]

Fact of the matter is, bums in seats don't pay for an event like this - they also don't pay for an event like Toronto. $8M in operating costs would be covered by things like sponsorship and VIP sales - and, believe me, they were covered.

The purpose of GA and grandstand sales is simply to create a crowd that the VIPs can be "over". They create the atmosphere of it being an event, and provide a rationale for creating special VIP areas and treatment. Sorta like the French peasantry were necessary for Marie Antoinette. Or, more prosaically, does anyone think that tickets sold at Fenway have any real bearing on how much money the Red Sox make?

I'm sure Penske ran the event in the black operationally, and might have even covered the amortized amount of investment (although the Detroit Downtown Partnership might have just written the infrastructure investment off as part of their mandate). But I don't really care for street events in general, so I'm not going to heap any accolades on Roger beyond that. It sounds like the photographers were well taken care of in all ways except being able to actually take good photographs. But that's the nature of street racing, I guess...

[ZXRobert]

Exactly. There was no way in hell he was going to pull off a 180 at the rate he was going (backward), combined with the fact that he was effectively going STRAIGHT back towards the wall at the time of the collision. Whether or not that (lack of steering input) was a reaction to the impending collision is the only point of contention, but regardless, it looks pretty incriminating.

Besides, he backed right into the racing line, and could/would have nailed or at least blocked Danica or anyone else behind him. She went around the front of Dixon only after he committed himself with his little stunt.

Mind you, I don't really give a rip about IRL. Just trying to be objective.

If not intentional, then extremely irresponsible/negligent, and worthy of a reprimand.

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

What, by smashing the back of his car into the wall?

That sure limits the damage!

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Why do you think he would have spent $25 million? I did not see anything in the article indicating that he wanted to spend more.

You missed the point. Penske wanted a detroit grand prix and was willing to spend whatever it took. Whether it was $15mil or $30 mil, it doesn't matter.

[paul-collins]

I think to a point you're correct, mountainstar - but that point would be the amount he could tap the DDP for (armtwisting his business buddies, all of whom share his desire to bring Detroit back to some semblance of vibrancy), plus the amount he could reasonably recoup through his VIP sales (ie more armtwisting of the local business community).

I suspect that $16M is about what he figured he could get without burning bridges for next year - but if it required more, perhaps there would be more available for investment too...

Question: why is this a negative?

[Tenoch]

Originally Posted by NAC

Well good on him (Penske), nice he is willing to stand up and push for events like this.

As for the attendance 0f 25,000 what was up with that. Apart from TV coverage money and other revenue gathering initiatives these events should be about bums on seats. Yes I know climb at the risk of being called someone with a simplistic view it doesn't really get any more simplistic than bums on seats keep events real for the future. Hell we can got more turn up to a local New Zealand series ie NZV8, Toyota Racing Series, F Ford, Mini's etc and we only have 4 mill living in the country.

Detroit is meant to be the capital of the motoring industry and it's in the US of A. My point here is if it's a seating issue build more platforms, if a marketing issue sack the marketers and bring in someone who can do the job. If it's something else get what ever that is sorted. 25k at an event won't be an event much longer.

Detroit use to be the motoring capitol of the US, it is now a bombed out looking city being lead by a former gang banger. The problem with Belle Isle is that its an Island and it's only a park so the access to the Island isn't the greatest. Sure they used shuttles but you cant really shuttle 100,000 people on 50 passenger buses. Belle Isle is also known as a place where people who are homeless spend their nights in parked cars.

Furthermore the majority of the type of people who can throw around the money to attend such an event don't actually live in the city of Detroit. So attracting people to actually show up is harder.

[NAC]

Originally Posted by HCForums

Has Scott Dixon actually spoken about the incident at all?

We can discuss this for another thousand pages but it won't change the outcome of Sunday's event. Luckily the championship is still wide open but people will most likely remember this moment when they think back of 2007.

So for all you out there that thought Scott will go to any lengths to win the Championship you were right. The proof is right here

http://www.indycar.com/multimedia/videos/player.php?v=801

http://www.indycar.com/multimedia/videos/player.php?v=802

He should stick to his day job. Mind you so should those other boys

http://www.indycar.com/multimedia/videos/player.php?v=803

Nice to see that can all still have a bit of fun in amongst all the pressure

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

As far as being "selective" goes - it is curious to me that the concern expressed by some of you all for the financial wisdom of doing street races seems only to apply to certain series and not to others...

I think recent events and threads have shown the importance and interest in the financial aspects of non permanent motorsport venues, regardless of series.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by Tenoch

Detroit use to be the motoring capitol of the US, it is now a bombed out looking city being lead by a former gang banger.

This is hardly news, is it? I mean, the riots were 40 years ago...

[JohnSSC]

The urban blight in Detroit is not all the direct result of the riots. 40 years worth of businesses and families moving to the suburbs (and beyond) have also taken their toll.