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20 Jul 2005, 11:43 (Ref:1359230) | #76 | |||
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Senna might have been hard but his abilities were so exceptional that he tended to leave people just enough space, if others judgement wasn't as good they could over-react. This business of moving across the track at the start seems pathetic, but so is having a car that gets itself off the line. |
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20 Jul 2005, 12:26 (Ref:1359296) | #77 | ||
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I really don't see how you can say that Senna left just enough room, compared to what Schuey does. I think that some of the things Senna did, particularly to Prost, were well beyond what Michael has done. Both drivers, in my opinion, are/were flawed in quite a similar way, though for different reasons. Senna did some of the things he did because of his beliefs - because he believed he was the best and should always win. That's one reason why he got so over the top with Prost - on his day, Prost could beat Senna fair and square.
Schuey does his moves for slightly different reasons. He pushes the envelope everwhere, whether it be with his driving or his work-rate within the team. Unfortunately, he also pushes well over the line when it comes to track behaviour. And because he (like Senna) always gets away with it, he continues to drive in that way. Both Schumacher and Senna will stand-out as great and legendary (though I agree with D-type, the two can be different), but there are elements of their careers which mean I will always be reluctant to put them at the very top of the list. |
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20 Jul 2005, 18:35 (Ref:1359545) | #78 | |||
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I'm afraid, like KRT, I cannot agree with you about Senna; I think he was worse than Schuey. Someone with such incredible talent did not need to undertake some of the manoeuvres that he carried out. I think his ultimate sin, as D-Type mentions, on Prost at Suzuka in 1990, warranted nothing less than his being stripped of his WDC title that year. Nevertheless, it would be difficult to deny that he was either a great driver or has become a legend. I agree with you about driver aids, but as I said in an earlier post, that is not the fault of the drivers, and not a reason to deny them a place in the history of the sport, if their driving and/or their achievements warrant it. |
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20 Jul 2005, 19:25 (Ref:1359576) | #79 | |||
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These discussions always end up going in circles and rarely reach anything close to a concensus! It's always more fun being extreme. But as you say we're not far apart in our opinions. It is easier to spot the outstanding talents from the past, whereas the present is much harder to judge. I heard something on the radio talking about outstanding sports talents (started as Tiger Woods as godo as Nicklaus) and they mentioned several current cricket players (I have no interest in that game) as being amongst the greatest ever, I think that it is unlikely that there should be so many more stars these days than at one time in the past. Why do so many people look good these days; are the standards lower, or is training etc.so good that you can make more people reach a high standard (which contradicts my idea of a star - those in the past tend to have been so good that they shone without loads of training). F1 has tended to have roughly 1 superstar per decade and very rarely have you had more than 2 concurrently, which makes comparison really difficult. Other sports are easier to judge because they rarely rely as much on equipment as in F1, and if they do the equipment tends to be much more eqqual. Last edited by John Turner; 27 Feb 2006 at 15:05. Reason: Putting quote in parenthesis. |
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20 Jul 2005, 20:58 (Ref:1359644) | #80 | |||
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Last edited by John Turner; 2 Jan 2007 at 16:31. |
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20 Jul 2005, 22:15 (Ref:1359701) | #81 | |||
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Senna was the quicker driver out of the two, I don't think that can be debated. Unfortunately for Senna his super aggressive nature got him into trouble (and in most cases rightly so). To quote the man: "Winning is the most important. Everything is a consequence of that." - Ayrton Senna Peter I agree that comparing F1 drivers of different era's is extremely difficult, if possible at all. One thing is for sure though, the racing and overtaking is not like it used to be |
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20 Jul 2005, 23:58 (Ref:1359750) | #82 | ||
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A. Senna - r.i.p.
I'm not going to debate one driver over another but Senna definitely was intense/obsessed with his driving. My first thought when he went straight off in Italy was he'd committed suicide and I'm yet to be convinced it was a driving error or mechanical failure. MTCW.
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21 Jul 2005, 08:47 (Ref:1359929) | #83 | |||||
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In the context of this thread, it is interesting to note that, at the time Alan Henry wrote ' .... what is beyond question is that Ayrton Senna was one of the all-time Grand Prix legends'. I suppose that what I have been trying to say all along, is that great drivers can become legends despite (or because of?) their shortcomings. |
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21 Jul 2005, 12:19 (Ref:1360050) | #84 | |||||
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Then there was the backmarker element. There were times when Senna definitely gained time on Prost in traffic (though not so much on Mansell I seem to remember!), but the other side of the coin was that occassionally he took too many chances. 1988 Monza and 1990 Brazil being two such examples. Prost was a faster driver than some people give him credit for, perhaps partly due to his unflustered style. Both he and Senna are greats, and legends, which takes the thread back to where it began! |
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21 Jul 2005, 14:05 (Ref:1360146) | #85 | ||
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A Great Racing Legend,perhaps
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21 Jul 2005, 16:20 (Ref:1360208) | #86 | |||
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21 Jul 2005, 21:31 (Ref:1360457) | #87 | ||
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Top posts John and krt917. Agree with you both.
It is a shame that many people seem to leave Prost out when it comes to the legends of F1. He was a brilliant driver with the correct tempermant to survive (literally) in F1. As they say, Senna needed Prost and vice versa to achieve the level of skill and concentration they are well known for. To add to Johns post about the upcoming Schumacher he was also in a far superior car and from memory they had a hidden traction control program in the computer (not sure if that was 94). Whatever the case I believe with Prost gone and a young Schumacher coming through it may have pushed Senna too far in a car that was clearly dangerous. Schumacher did say that his idol Senna would have won in 94, I (even as a Senna fan) doubt it. |
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22 Jul 2005, 13:23 (Ref:1360813) | #88 | ||
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To much is made of modern drivers being called legends. Much of todays success is down to designers and the hi tech cars compared to the drivers. To me a legend is a
driver who you can only read about and his ability in the cars of the day and his life out of the cockpit. The pre great war cars and races produced several "legends" such as S.F.Edge,Louis Wagner, Rene de Knyff, Felice Nazzaro, Ferenc Szisz,George Boillot and Christian Lautenschlager. Their cars and the conditions they raced in can not be compared to today in any way. Some of these cars will be in action at Mallory Park on Sunday, go and have a look. Then imagine them on unsurfaced roads. Another group of "legends" appeared between the wars,these drivers seem to have had their lives documented better than the earlier drivers. one or two posts have mentioned Nouvolari , Campbell and Varzi but what about John Cobb, Henry Seagrave, Raymond Sommer,Albert Divo,Guiseppe Campari, Antonio Ascari,Jean Pierre Wimille and for me the true legend Robert Benoist, a truely great driver in the car, a larger than life personality and finally a war hero. |
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22 Jul 2005, 16:57 (Ref:1360924) | #89 | ||
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anyone interested in a real legend should read Archie and the Listers. Mr Scott Browns story is what legends are all about. A kid with cruel disabilities dreaming of becoming a racing driver and succeeding against all adversity.wonder how many fit modern drivers would manage to wrestle a Lister Jaguar like he did.Its a helluva story.
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25 Jul 2005, 16:46 (Ref:1363053) | #90 | |||
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