Who are the top 10 touring car drivers of all time?

[krt917]

Originally Posted by P.Cummins

krt, you are right. Race craft does lead to achievement but, like I said, I really enjoy watching Chilton. He is not who I would class "boring" and from his driving at Knockhill (2004) alone, he has to be put there. He may not have achieved much but he has only been in the championship for 3 years (which being a late teenager may be a lot but on paper its not really).

Fair enough. I try to differentiate between the greats and my personal favourites. For example, I prefer Anthony Reid to John Cleland, but in a 'greats' list you'd be hard-pushed to justify putting Reid ahead.

Originally Posted by chunterer

2/ Gianfranco 'Branca' Brancatelli. In 80's was damn good in 635's, 240's and Sierra's. Only blot being the TWR Rover spell but he got shafted a bit there.

Yes, definitely another contender.

[Crowestar]

He's my top 5

Peter Brock
Mark Skaife
Steve Soper
Gerry Marshall
Roberto Ravalia

I couldn't go past Brocky to be number 1 as he did win the Bathurst 1000 nine times even with the competition around him such as Johnson, Moffat, Bond, Richards etc. Skaifey is still doing well at the moment and will come back into form very soon. Soper was very lucky not to win Bathurst in 1987 after driving well and winning on the road only to be disqualified for illegal body panels.(I didn't care cause that meant Brocky won number 9)

[P.Cummins]

I only remember seeing Brock on a video I have. Its called "Murray Walker Motorsport" or something. Peter Brock gave him a spin around Bathurst in a blue Austin 7. He is some driver. Especcially seeing him going down the conrod straight! Then, Brad Jones gave him a spin around the track in a red Audi A4 Quattro. If only I had digital...

[racer69]

It's a pity Brock never got the funds for a proper attack on the 1986 ETCC (though a pair of 5ths at Donnington and Hockenheim weren't bad) and the 1987 WTCC. Maybe if Australia had gone international Touring Car racing 10 years earlier, but then of course we would have never seen the wonderful beasts of the reformed Group C Touring Car era of 1980-1984.......

It's amazing that Roberto Ravaglia is relatively underated for what he did, considering he won 5 championships in 5 years (1986 ETC, 1987 WTCC, 1988 ETC, 1989 DTM, 1990 Italian).

Plus remember his first 3 were in cars which really weren't meant to win the outright championship;-

1986 - In the BMW 635csi, too old everyone said, remember BMW didn't even put in a proper full-time effort in the 1985 ETCC because they thought the car was uncompetitive

1987 (WTCC) and 1988 (ETC) - abit lucky in both cases (1987 the RS500 didn't come along until mid-year, 1988 the Eggenberger boys were more interested in taking points of eachother than their rivals), but still a top effort in a much slower car (particularly in 1988)

[P.Cummins]

Well, I never saw Ravaglia driving. He is apparently the BTCC's only world champion. I too think that he is under-rated and I'm only basing that on the fact that this is the first thread I have read on any forum that he has been properly mentioned. Other may argue the opposite and that is absolutley fine.

[racer69]

Well, he's the only World Champion until someone is crowned the winner of this years re-started WTCC (though i find the 'new' WTCC hard to get excited about ) later this year, wouldn't it be fitting if it was one of the Ravaglia Motorsport drivers which lifts the title at season's end.

Unfortunatly he seemed past it abit in 1996 when he drove a Schnitzer BMW in the BTCC. He chucked a few tantrums, but was still capable of a strong drive, as shown on quite a few occasions. A pity he retired at the end of 1997, at the still relatively young age (as far as sedan drivers go) of 41.

He was a real star at Bathurst in the years he was here (1985, 1986 and 1987). I was only 4 the last time he was in Australia for Bathurst ('87), but over the years i have seen the footage of his exploits over here, especially getting the ageing 635csi into second position on the grid prior to Hardies Heroes in 1986 (he bombed it abit on his Hardies Heroes lap, dropping to 9th).

In fairness though endurance races seemed his strength, rather than sprint races. Was it the 1988 Spa 24 Hours where he didn't get into his car until the 14th hour, but drove 8 of the last 10 hours to victory?

Paddy - The video you refer to would be 'Murray's Magic Moments' would it not, a fantastic video, especially the rallycross stuff

Possibly a long shot posting it here, but while i think of it, in an obituary in Australian Motorsport News for Gerry Marshall, it mentions that when Marshall came to Bathurst for the 1977 Hardie-Ferodo 1000 (partnering Basil Van Rooyan) in part of the 3 car Bill Patterson Racing Team (Peter Brock and Phil Brock in one car, Doug Chivas and Tony Roberts in the second, Van Rooyan and Marshall in the third), it mentions that Marshall wasn't happy with the equipment and let Brock know about it. Does anyone know more about this from the English perspective? In Australia i had never heard this story, remember that earlier in 1977 Brock had partnered Marshall to second in the Spa 24 Hours, and anywhere i had read Brock commenting on Gerry Marshall in the past, had always been positively.

[P.Cummins]

[QUOTE=racer69]

Paddy - The video you refer to would be 'Murray's Magic Moments' would it not, a fantastic video, especially the rallycross stuff
QUOTE]

Actually its not. But its called "Murray's Motorsports Spectacular". It has from his early F1 days, to his rallycross days, the BTCC with Charlie Cox and more recent F1 times (up to 1998 as thats when it was published).

[racer69]

Your quite correct, that is the video i was meaning. 'Murray's Magic Moments' was released a year or so earlier and concentrated solely on Formula 1.

It's a pity Brock never got the funds for a proper attack on the 1986 ETCC (though a pair of 5ths at Donnington and Hockenheim weren't bad)

He was far better funded than the Allan Grice/Graeme Baily Commodore effort. But Gricey had far more speed every time they met. While Brock languished in the bottom half of the top ten, AG was banging doors (mainly on his opponents side) with the leaders. If Grice had the structure that Brock had in place, he would have won races in Europe.

[lj79]

[QUOTE=racer69]

1986 - In the BMW 635csi, too old everyone said, remember BMW didn't even put in a proper full-time effort in the 1985 ETCC because they thought the car was uncompetitive QUOTE]

From Hockenheim onwards in 86 the BMWs benefitted from an evolution engine which made the car massively competitive. The delay in the homologation of this was the reason for a stunted 85 programme.

[lj79]

Originally Posted by White Knight

He was far better funded than the Allan Grice/Graeme Baily Commodore effort. But Gricey had far more speed every time they met. While Brock languished in the bottom half of the top ten, AG was banging doors (mainly on his opponents side) with the leaders. If Grice had the structure that Brock had in place, he would have won races in Europe.

Grice led at Monza, Hockenheim, Donington, Nurburgring, Silverstone and Zolder in 86. (He also did Spa, Jarama and Estoril IIRC).

I saw Hockenheim, Donington, Spa and Silverstone that year. Brock didn't do Silverstone (Woodmand / Cleland ran in the MHDT car), but at the others I did see Grice was miles quicker than Brock, and I do mean miles

[racer69]

Certainly was, Grice was usually let down by his co-drivers when in a competitive position. (Anyone else heard the story about him catching one of his Spa co-drivers Alex Guyaux taking mouthfulls of drinks (of the alcoholic variety) mid-race........(there's also another story of a Toyota driver in that 1986 Spa 24 Hour, i must dig the story out of, i think an article in Motor Racing Australia)

Part of the MHDT/Brock set-up was that their eyes weren't totally on the job. They were juggling doing all the Australian Touring Car Championship rounds (mostly with two cars, bar Lakeside) as well as a few ETC events, and also in their eyes they seemed more interested in not having enough funding rather than getting on with the job with what they had. They half let themselves down due to focus.

Grice on the other hand was out to make a name for himself. He saw his future in Europe driving Touring Cars and this was his chance to make a name for himself, which he did so.

The delay's in homologation for the BMW 635csi in 1985 was to do with them originally pulling the plug on the factory effort for 1985, as they saw no hope in beating the Jaguar's. Jag pulled out at a relatively late stage though, but by that time any hope of a meaningful testing and development program was out the window for the start of the season.

[lj79]

Thanks for the correction.

Graeme Bailey was really, really, REALLY crap

[racer69]

He still helped Grice to a victory at Bathurst in 1986 though

[lj79]

Yes but dumped it at hells' corner too, lucky not to bury it the kitty litter. didnt grice drive 5 1/2 hrs in 86 or soemting like that?

[P.Cummins]

Interesting this...

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by lj79

Thanks for the correction.

Graeme Bailey was really, really, REALLY crap

Given Mr Bailey's previous steeds in competition on this side of the world were underpowered Toyota Celicas, and eventually Mazda Rx-7 Group C cars, and even then usually only at endurance race time, there was a gulf in the experience levels of Mr Grice and Mr Bailey when it came down to being able to carry a car that wasnt quite right.

So its not totally true that the driver was crap, more that he wasnt as experienced as some of the other guys in the field, certainly not in Commodores anyway...

... although Mr Grice did do the bulk of the driving for the 1986 Bathurst win...

Having said that as well... if Mr Bailey wasnt included in the program for Europe (bringing sponsorship from the family Chickadee Chicken business), and indeed the ownership of the Bathurst 1986 car, then Mr Grice would not have been able to run in either.....

The MHDT at that time were not as strong as they once were. The budget was not the kazillions that everyone expected... although the tanking of the Aussie Dollar versus any other currency in the world didnt help that either. It is said that Mr Brock, and the HDT equipe picked up a lot (i.e. most!) of the tab for the European vacation.... not Mobil or Holden... which cost something like A$1m at the time...

[lj79]

aware of Bailey and Chickadee. In 27 yrs of watching touring cars, in europe, he ranks amongst the worst I have ever seen. But I am sure he is a nice bloke...

[the man]

Grice had a 'Bailey-like' situation in 1982 as well. Owner of the Re-Car Commodore Grice put on pole for the 1982 1000 (and with which Grice had won the penultimate round of the 1982 ATCC with, a good comeback after the bitter split with the JPS/BMW/Frank Gardner equipe the year before, which Grice himself had been instrumental in setting up!) was Allan Browne, a good driver but by no means a star, and was quite abit off the pace of Grice. Browne didn't really seem to mind though, he was extremely happy with the ultimate second place (he sold the team after the race). Although it is unlikely they would have beaten the Brock/Perkins Commodore in the end that day.......

Bailey still owns the Chickadee Commodore used that day at Bathurst in 1986, currently it's on display in the Bathurst museum. As far as i know it has only done a few races since the 1986 win, all in the hands of Graeme's son Derek, in a few Sports Sedan races.

How good was Hans Heyer perceived as in Europe? He was originally part of the TWR Jaguar line-up for Bathurst in 1985, but was replaced by Win Percy ultimatly.

[GTRMagic]

Allan Browne, owner of ReCar, could steer a bit... but like Graeme Bailey, didnt do all the rounds, and didnt have the same skill level...

Given the speed of Grice's long time crew chief's Les Small's son James, I wonder how a Grice/Small combination would have worked

[lj79]

Originally Posted by the man

How good was Hans Heyer perceived as in Europe? He was originally part of the TWR Jaguar line-up for Bathurst in 1985, but was replaced by Win Percy ultimatly.

Cant recall Heyer ever being listed to drive with Walkinshaw at Bathurst. From 85 Walkinshaw and Percy were partners in ETCC anyway and Percy was a part time member of the XJS squad in 83 when Heyer was a works BMW driver.

Heyer is perceived as one of the touring car greats, more down to his efforts in various bewinged Zakspeed cars in the 70's, Escorts and Capris.

He was also pretty quick in the works Lancia LC2 in 1983

[racer69]

I had heard the Hans Heyer story as well.

The only evidence i have ever seen linking him to a Jaguar drive in the 1985 Bathurst 1000 is from the June 1985 edition of 'Chequered Flag' magazine in Australia.

The page 5 article, mentions that Walkinshaw and Heyer would drive the lead car, a driver was still to be found to partner an unnamed driver in the second Jag, and John Goss and Ron Dickson would share the third car. Of course it wound up much different to that.

The article is very early days though. It speaks of two Schnitzer entries, and of the original entry in that car of Niki Lauda and Nelson Piquet. These two were of course replaced when the European GP at Brands Hatch was rescheduled for that weekend, with Ravaglia and Johnny Cecotto (despite being a factory Volvo driver at the time!) replacing them. It also talks of a Britsh entry from Frank Sytner.

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Given the speed of Grice's long time crew chief's Les Small's son James, I wonder how a Grice/Small combination would have worked

Already, happened, they partnered each other in Gricey's V8Brute in the support races for the 2003 Bathurst 24 Hour.

Is James still running Formula Ford this year?

the man - Browne did more than just sell the team after Bathurst 1982, as far as i know he announced his retirement, only to be enticed back firstly as part of the two-car John Sands Porsche 935 attack on the 1983 Australian GT Championship, then again at Bathurst in 1984, driving alongside Barry Lawrence. Does Browne still own Re-Car?

[lj79]

Originally Posted by racer69

Johnny Cecotto (despite being a factory Volvo driver at the time!) replacing them.

No - Cecotto beamse a works Volvo driver (RAS Sport)in 86. He finished 2nd at the 85 Spa 24 hrs with Schnitzer. The works Volvo drivers in 1985 (Eggenberger) were Branacatelli / Lindstron and Muller / Dieudonne.

[racer69]

Yes your quite right, not sure what i waqs going on about there

[Mike Dodman]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kitson

I have not included any of today's so called 'stars' as they tend to overtake if a gap is there or not, rather than drive past cleanly. Better suited to a stock car track.

Amen to that, but perhaps we are from a different era!