|
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
5 Nov 2010, 21:17 (Ref:2785558) | #76 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 230
|
One meeting, once a year. And the biggest motorsport event in the country. Is this really a convincing argument?
Because you are still penalising the less well off, that's why not, especially where there are a family of 4 or more involved in the sport |
||
__________________
"E-mail is not to be used to pass on information or data. It should be used only for company business." |
5 Nov 2010, 22:08 (Ref:2785575) | #77 | |||
Rookie
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 55
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
5 Nov 2010, 22:15 (Ref:2785578) | #78 | |||
Racer
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 279
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
5 Nov 2010, 22:21 (Ref:2785582) | #79 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 55
|
Hey for £20 you do seem to be getting good value for money. Small price to pay that you get to display the sponsors logo. Better than having to buy them yourself.
|
||
|
5 Nov 2010, 22:31 (Ref:2785585) | #80 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 55
|
Having spoken to a number of guys and girls on the bank the bike marshalls do seem to get better "looked after" than us doing car marshalling. Do they have the same problems with overmanning (i.e at BSB or WSB meets) as the original points mentioned at the start and subsequent comments on this thread?
|
||
|
5 Nov 2010, 22:33 (Ref:2785587) | #81 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,359
|
Quote:
Don't forget that it's not just BTCC which "suffers" from excessive marshal numbers - at the Oulton F3/GT meeting this year I had more incident than I was comfortable with. Should we have a separate marshalling organisation, grading system, clique, for every over-manned package. |
|||
__________________
Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person. |
5 Nov 2010, 22:46 (Ref:2785596) | #82 | |||
Rookie
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 55
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
5 Nov 2010, 23:08 (Ref:2785607) | #83 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,359
|
Over the last few years a lot of effort has been put into recruiting to address the problem of dwindling marshal numbers; I believe it's essential to maintain that impetus to avoid a return to the famine years. If we assume that recent high levels of new marshals were, in part at least, the result of a pent-up demand, then a levelling-off in recruitment is to be expected; that, plus the normal retention rate, could be expected to lead to a stabilisation over the next few years. Of course, I could be completely wrong here - that's pure conjecture.
Quote:
Let's not lose sight of the fact that, overall, marshal numbers, especially of experienced marshals, are still too low; however, forcing people to do meetings they have no interest in before they can do the meetings they really want to do is, I believe, a dangerous path to go down. Having said that, I have suggestions to offer as to how it should be done. . . |
|||
__________________
Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person. |
5 Nov 2010, 23:15 (Ref:2785610) | #84 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,265
|
Having just re-read the entire thread, it looks to me like everyone here is shooting the various messengers who are proposing different ideas to resolve a problem which has only been hinted at (albeit directly) by a comment from the MSA.
How about we all take a deep breath, step back, and get involved in the inevitable group which will form around whoever is asked by the MSA to propose a solution to the problem? All the opinions offered here are valid, even if in opposition. Having spent a bit of time looking back to the early days of the 10/10 Marshals Forum I note with no amusement at all that there were frequent "There aren't enough people to go around" threads only 5 or 6 years ago. Oddly enough, the same sorts of reactions happened back then too. Bringing this post back to the topic: in the last year and a bit I've marshalled at circuits all over England (haven't made it to the republics of Pembrey, Anglesey or Knockhill - yet!) because my local circuit was shut and has only recently reopened, and my family are spread all over the place. I've been welcomed everywhere - *especially* at BTCC meetings, which make up almost 20% of my days so far altogether. And an even bigger *especially* at Oulton Park, where this subject came up for discussion first. I haven't focussed on a single series or circuit, preferring instead to get as much experience as possible of a number of circuits and meetings with as large a number of people as possible. Reading some of the comments here I could be painted as the worst of the worst - no regular circuit (although that's changing now), no regular racing club or series. I'm lucky that I'm an hour or so away from several circuits. I've learned from a lot of you, in a lot of places, and I feel quite privileged to have done so. If things have changed now to a point where there are too many marshals to operate in a way which feels safe, then there are two solutions: 1. Limit the numbers at the meetings 2. Change the working practices at the meetings Neither is mutually exclusive, and like DJ said earlier this could be a brilliant training opportunity. So - instead of jumping up and down and pointing fingers at the groups of people who some might feel cause the perceived problem, why don't we concentrate on finding out whether it *is* a problem, and then find an answer to it? Criticise the proposed ideas by all means, but for everyone's sake let's be constructive about it. Anything else can only lead to bitterness and nobody wants that. Do we? |
|
|
6 Nov 2010, 02:38 (Ref:2785657) | #85 | |
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 452
|
just an idea..
I presume that something would be worked out by the powers that be to limit the numbers of marshals at events, and maybe it is coming. so is there any point in discussing the how to's until they are known? or we are asked for idea's? i think we could all understand the need to limit some events, so how about the regular marshals that are turned away, get free tickets any way, as some form of compensation? something like..... "sorry we have to many marshals for this event, but please come along to watch, here's two tickets for yourself and guest." of course some limits to earn the tickets should be in place too, or the place would fill with marshals on free tickets. |
|
|
6 Nov 2010, 07:28 (Ref:2785690) | #86 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,909
|
Quote:
I personally don't think that you can have too many marshals at a meeting, but you can have too many in one place. this comes down to the Post Chief liasing with the I/O as to where exactly to post their troops. If you find that you've got too many to safely place them, then why not let some stand-down for a session, thus allowing everyone the chance of a toilet break or even, the chance to spend time with the flaggies or PC to learn their jobs. as Greem said, we don't want to go back to the days of not enough marshals so maybe it's just that the powers-that-be have a new and unexpected challenge,....... just how do they deal with so many of us? not easy but surely a better problem to have. |
||
__________________
Never explain–your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe you anyway |
6 Nov 2010, 19:18 (Ref:2785952) | #87 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,359
|
Quote:
. . . and to anybody who's worked with me, if I come across as a moaning old sod, that's why! |
|||
__________________
Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person. |
6 Nov 2010, 23:25 (Ref:2786056) | #88 | ||
Racer
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 279
|
the manning levels for the bsb is not oversubscribed like the btcc they are after new marshals to join as the oldest ones are retiring from old age, yep old age one bloke was 75yrs doing incident.lol, normal bike meetings are like car club meetings, was on redgate at donington park two weeks again for thundersport gb. no. on post 3, one flaggy , a i.o and me and we had 1 f1 sidecars and 15 bikes on the sat.
festival of sidecars at mallory last weekend was the same again 3 of us. i was the youngest, the flaggy had just had a hip replacement a. the i.o was going in the following in to hospital for his. as gream said we are all volunteers and should not pick on people who put ideas up on this thread, dont take it out on the trainees as they are the one who are going to need your advice and knowledge to replace you when you retire and they can give the same advice to the ones who follow in your footsteps as well. moto gp at silverstone this year over 150 marshals had letters sent to them saying not needed after originally being selected. they was given 2 passes for the sunday, many of those who got them say they will never ever volunteer for moto gp again and quit marshaling, do we want the same reaction. i hope we don't as it then becomes dangerous for us being undermanned and also for th reason we do it, to help the drivers/ riders out when they crash and keep the racing going. no marshals no racing. |
||
|
7 Nov 2010, 15:17 (Ref:2786397) | #89 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 391
|
The aspect of this debate that strikes me as strange is that the MSA (or is it the BTCC?) are so concerned about over-manning at some meetings (relatively few, I suggest) but apparently not so concerned that many other meetings are undermanned (echoing the comment made by JSW).
Another aspect is what level of "normal" manning are we looking at - the level we were at when there were 50,000 race marshalling days per annum or the level of recent years that has been as low as half that number and still running at around 60/70% of that number, even with all the new recruits that have come in via the Team Wilson/BMMC initiative over recent years. (The number of race days has remained virtually the same during the period that marshalling numbers have decreased.) Many of these new recruits would have joined at BTCC rounds, where most of the recruitment activity was based - thanks to support from the BTCC organisers and the circuit owners. It is only natural, perhaps, than many of these will see attendance at a BTCC round as their natural starting place. Whatever the rights and wrongs of this, it seems to me that we should "suffer" a few meetings that are over-manned before "threatening" to trim numbers. This gives out all the wrong messages. Far better, surely, to still encourage attendance at any meeting and try, by persuasion, to get marshals to go to the less well-attended meetings. It depends, too, what Club new marshals join; those that join the Marshals' Club (BMMC) will quickly learn that there are around three hundred race days a year they can attend, under the national volunteering system the BMMC provides. Last edited by MacGWC; 7 Nov 2010 at 15:23. |
||
|
7 Nov 2010, 19:29 (Ref:2786603) | #90 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 819
|
The flip side of the coin people is:
How would you define a safe number of people on post? |
||
__________________
incarace marshal |
7 Nov 2010, 19:53 (Ref:2786616) | #91 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,425
|
On a more serious note - numbers really need to be addressed at Silverstone. I only just managed to get breakfast before getting to post due to the huge queue in the diner today.
|
||
__________________
I used to be with it, until they changed what it is. Now what I'm with is no longer it. |
7 Nov 2010, 20:00 (Ref:2786620) | #92 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,020
|
|||
__________________
"Sometimes, I just want to tell them 'it's not a race!'" - Guinness2702 |
7 Nov 2010, 20:19 (Ref:2786633) | #93 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 208
|
|||
__________________
The man with the yellow flag. |
7 Nov 2010, 20:53 (Ref:2786660) | #94 | |||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,454
|
Quote:
LOL. I thought it was the queue for the toilet it started so far back. I only just got to post on time. |
|||
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other. |
8 Nov 2010, 02:06 (Ref:2786806) | #95 | |
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 452
|
||
|
8 Nov 2010, 14:31 (Ref:2787056) | #96 | |||
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 391
|
Quote:
The most important aspect of all this was that this is how I got my training as a flag marshal and then Observer. How many times in the past ten years or so have we had the luxury of on-post training? ES would similarly take a few trainees on post, for training purposes. This was considered safe then, what is considered safe now? Is it one Observer, one flag - if you are lucky!! The ES Team at Silverstone, at the height of its fame, would occasionally trim numbers, to save too many on post and, yes, the more popular meetings, like the GP, FF festival, etc would be "rationed". It was always disappointing for those not chosen, as it would be again, if we have to revert to rationing for these more popular meetings. (Important to note that in quite a few of the recent years, the GP only just got enough Observers and Flags!) However, before we get to the stage of simply limiting numbers, could we not all work together to make sure a few trainee marshals could be allocated to the "over-manned" meetings, for some proper on-post training? All it would take would be a little better communication between all concerned. |
|||
|
8 Nov 2010, 16:07 (Ref:2787097) | #97 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,020
|
Quote:
I don't think anybody is suggesting we keep numbers to a bare minimum, but we do have to set a maximum safe/reasonable number. No doubt, that number will include trainees who get to take advantage of on post experience. |
|||
__________________
"Sometimes, I just want to tell them 'it's not a race!'" - Guinness2702 |
8 Nov 2010, 19:23 (Ref:2787195) | #98 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 230
|
I disagree entirely. On some posts, less than half that number could be considered too many, but try doing Post 3 at Anglesey and then tell me 28 is too many - it would only mean we had the post anywhere near properly manned for the first time in its history.
If an incident team consists of 1 to go to the car first, the second to back him up and watch his back for traffic, a 3rd on the powder and the 4th on the foam, that gives you a total of 4 marshals. 2 of the team may be trainees, or even 3 if one of them is an "experienced trainee". For an "average" corner, you have 1 team on the way in, another at the centre of the corner and 2 more on the exit points (where most cars come off) and a team on the inside of the corner - that's 20 incident marshals. Add on 1 IO, a trainee IO, 3 flaggies per flag post - usually 2 flag points per corner - an observer and a trainee observer, you have a total of 30. For posts that only need 2 incident teams and a flag point, the total comes down to 14 or 15. Some posts with a lot of ground to cover may even require more than 30, but there are some posts where 6 would be too many. The point is, it is the post that should dictate the number of marshals that should be present, in [relative] safety, not some random statement like "28 is too many". But, then again, I would like to get my breakfast served quicker next time |
||
__________________
"E-mail is not to be used to pass on information or data. It should be used only for company business." |
8 Nov 2010, 20:07 (Ref:2787216) | #99 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,359
|
Quote:
Groups of more than two marshals do create a safety problem. More than two & there's a risk that escape routes will be blocked - indeed, BRSCCNW final instructions categorically state that marshals must not stand in groups of more than two. |
|||
__________________
Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person. |
8 Nov 2010, 20:23 (Ref:2787223) | #100 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,020
|
Quote:
I really thought that to state that every post has a different maximum number would have been to state the chuffin obvious. My point is, that there exists an upper limit on what is safe/reasonable on each post, and therefore on each circuit. |
|||
__________________
"Sometimes, I just want to tell them 'it's not a race!'" - Guinness2702 |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Interview with a race Marshal | Grandslammer | Marshals Forum | 5 | 17 Dec 2009 18:58 |
Race of Champions - new opportunity to marshal | Chris Hobson | Marshals Forum | 198 | 17 Mar 2008 03:47 |
Race marshal almost run over. | Rachel Richards | Australasian Touring Cars. | 82 | 19 Jul 2006 06:11 |
Manning to race in the 24 hours of Daytona | luke | North American Racing | 2 | 16 Sep 2004 17:41 |