The Current State of IndyCar

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

There hasn't been a turn around at all, in fact it's the opposite, fewer people are watching and the result is TV audiences are down and this will impact on TV advertising revenue, which the series sorely needs.

Exactly there hasnt been an extreme downturn since the introduction of the DW12 that you could attribute to this change - hence the problems are beyond this.

Why you feel the need to continually beat on about the look of the car, whilst proclaiming the apocalypse I am unsure.

The car is what it is and its what the series has atleast for the forseeable future.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Exactly there hasnt been an extreme downturn since the introduction of the DW12 that you could attribute to this change - hence the problems are beyond this.

Why you feel the need to continually beat on about the look of the car, whilst proclaiming the apocalypse I am unsure.

The car is what it is and its what the series has at least for the foreseeable future.

Extreme or otherwise there's been a downturn in TV viewing figures and this will translate into less advertising revenue. I'm not proclaiming the apocalypse just stating the obvious.

I personally think the look of the car has a negative affect but that aside. The problem the teams face is two fold, firstly the chassis costs much than originally foreseen and secondly spare parts have to be purchased from Dallara, because of the deal the IRL did with them, at a much higher cost than going to a 3rd party and this makes it extremely hard, especially for the smaller teams to operate, within their budgets.

[D.R.T.]

Did the chassis cost change? From memory it was stable however the spare parts were the concern of the teams.

The cost of operating the current car is less that the previous car & less that what it would be in an open formula.

By no means am I suggesting this the best structure long term for the series, however the current situation has reduced costs, just not to the extent that was planned or presented to teams in 2011.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Did the chassis cost change? From memory it was stable however the spare parts were the concern of the teams.

The cost of operating the current car is less that the previous car & less that what it would be in an open formula.

By no means am I suggesting this the best structure long term for the series, however the current situation has reduced costs, just not to the extent that was planned or presented to teams in 2011.

I'm surprised you are questioning the change in chassis costs, when you yourself posted the link from this article, in your post #32 on this thread.

http://www.crash.net/indycar/news/18...aero_kits.html,

It says at the bottom of the fifth paragraph, ''the DW12 chassis was meant to cost around $385,000 but in practice has come in at nearer $600,000.''

[JacobP]

Show an event like the 2013 Baltimore race or Sonoma to a bunch of F1 fans, and almost all of them will probably ask, "Why would I want to watch something like this ever again?". Showing a race where half of time is spent under yellow is like begging the viewer to change the channel. What other things look terrible and could be better? Boring street courses where cars bounce like basketballs on uneven pavement and where cars have nowhere to go but to crash into the walls? Amateurish drivers who constantly crash into each other and make Maldonado look like a saint? The frequent yellows that turn everyone's strategy into a lottery by the end of race? After so many yellows, at the end of day I often have a hard time seeing whether the front runners are there because they were fast, or maybe they just got lucky with the yellows coming at the right time. Forget the ugly cars. I could live with them. There is just no good flow to many of IndyCars races. This was the case before 2012 as well. Solution? Give us more road courses in the schedule. Also, do something about full course cautions. Learn something from F1's local yellows.

[Paradise City]

The Baltimore race was fine. They've stacked up at Long Beach since the glory years and they stacked up here. It's not pretty perhaps but it's no big deal either.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Show an event like the 2013 Baltimore race or Sonoma to a bunch of F1 fans, and almost all of them will probably ask, "Why would I want to watch something like this ever again?". Showing a race where half of time is spent under yellow is like begging the viewer to change the channel. What other things look terrible and could be better? Boring street courses where cars bounce like basketballs on uneven pavement and where cars have nowhere to go but to crash into the walls? Amateurish drivers who constantly crash into each other and make Maldonado look like a saint? The frequent yellows that turn everyone's strategy into a lottery by the end of race? After so many yellows, at the end of day I often have a hard time seeing whether the front runners are there because they were fast, or maybe they just got lucky with the yellows coming at the right time. Forget the ugly cars. I could live with them. There is just no good flow to many of IndyCars races. This was the case before 2012 as well. Solution? Give us more road courses in the schedule. Also, do something about full course cautions. Learn something from F1's local yellows.

Having watched two very disappointing GPs at two of F1's iconic tracks, Spa and Monza, I thought both Sonoma and Baltimore fared pretty well.

[The Happy Track Fan]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Show an event like the 2013 Baltimore race or Sonoma to a bunch of F1 fans, and almost all of them will probably ask, "Why would I want to watch something like this ever again?". Showing a race where half of time is spent under yellow is like begging the viewer to change the channel. What other things look terrible and could be better? Boring street courses where cars bounce like basketballs on uneven pavement and where cars have nowhere to go but to crash into the walls? Amateurish drivers who constantly crash into each other and make Maldonado look like a saint? The frequent yellows that turn everyone's strategy into a lottery by the end of race? After so many yellows, at the end of day I often have a hard time seeing whether the front runners are there because they were fast, or maybe they just got lucky with the yellows coming at the right time. Forget the ugly cars. I could live with them. There is just no good flow to many of IndyCars races. This was the case before 2012 as well. Solution? Give us more road courses in the schedule. Also, do something about full course cautions. Learn something from F1's local yellows.

BINGO!! We have a winner.

Could not have said it better myself.

[The Happy Track Fan]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

The Baltimore race was fine. They've stacked up at Long Beach since the glory years and they stacked up here. It's not pretty perhaps but it's no big deal either.

You're kidding right?

Sonoma and Baltimore were two of the very worst Indy Car/Champ Car races I have ever seen in my 35 some odd years of watching North American top-tier open wheel racing, and they came back-to-back.

Imagine someone watching Sonoma for the first time, and a seasoned Indy Car fan says to them "ah that was a fluky race, it will be much better next weekend" and then you show Baltimore to them!!!!! Yikes. New fan permanently lost.

If you want to show a new fan how exciting this sport can be, show them the last couple of Indy 500's. Or show them the set up and pass of Kimball on Pagenaud at Mid-Ohio. Or show them how Hinch set up Sato on the last lap at Sao Paulo (although in all fairness, it was a lot of yellow flags too). But, those are the moments that show Indy Car at it's best. Defiinitely not Sonoma and Baltimore!!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by The Happy Track Fan

You're kidding right?

Sonoma and Baltimore were two of the very worst Indy Car/Champ Car races I have ever seen in my 35 some odd years of watching North American top-tier open wheel racing, and they came back-to-back.

Imagine someone watching Sonoma for the first time, and a seasoned Indy Car fan says to them "ah that was a fluky race, it will be much better next weekend" and then you show Baltimore to them!!!!! Yikes. New fan permanently lost.

If you want to show a new fan how exciting this sport can be, show them the last couple of Indy 500's. Or show them the set up and pass of Kimball on Pagenaud at Mid-Ohio. Or show them how Hinch set up Sato on the last lap at Sao Paulo (although in all fairness, it was a lot of yellow flags too). But, those are the moments that show Indy Car at it's best. Defiinitely not Sonoma and Baltimore!!

Neither Sonoma or Baltimore were ever part of the Champ Car series.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by The Happy Track Fan

You're kidding right?

Sonoma and Baltimore were two of the very worst Indy Car/Champ Car races I have ever seen in my 35 some odd years of watching North American top-tier open wheel racing, and they came back-to-back.

Imagine someone watching Sonoma for the first time, and a seasoned Indy Car fan says to them "ah that was a fluky race, it will be much better next weekend" and then you show Baltimore to them!!!!! Yikes. New fan permanently lost.

If you want to show a new fan how exciting this sport can be, show them the last couple of Indy 500's. Or show them the set up and pass of Kimball on Pagenaud at Mid-Ohio. Or show them how Hinch set up Sato on the last lap at Sao Paulo (although in all fairness, it was a lot of yellow flags too). But, those are the moments that show Indy Car at it's best. Defiinitely not Sonoma and Baltimore!!

I quite enjoyed Sonoma and Baltimore this year. Race organisation kind of threw the Sonoma race for not making the pit slots explicit and with Baltimore they've been stacking up at Long Beach since year dot, so it doesn't really faze me if it happens at Baltimore. I won't inform you that they are classic tracks but I don't find either that problematic either. OK Sonoma can be hit and miss but the Baltimore race delivers.

I wouldn't be able to convince someone to watch Indycar because the cars look like plastic life boats on wheels. I switched onto Indycar on an F1 weekend recently with my mind distracted with other things and it took a good few seconds to adjust to the fact that these aren't dizzy GP2 cars but Indycars. That's very telling.

When I first got into Indycars during the 80's, I was watching F1 and stumbled upon Indycar in the evening and my head exploded! F1 was a tough turbo sport in the 80's. Real mean machines but this Indycar had all F1 had but with even more teeth and variety! If I had stumbled onto these plastic things today never having seen Indycar, I'd see some junior single seater-esque formula and I'd switch over without a second thought.

Until these Indycars look like beasts and aim to look more muscular and fierce than F1 so as to turn the heads of fans who have never seen the sport, Indycar isn't going anywhere IMO.

[The Happy Track Fan]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Neither Sonoma or Baltimore were ever part of the Champ Car series.

I realize that fact. Sheesh. I was simply stating that I have been following both Indy Car and Champ Car for about 35 years of my life, and in that time, they are TWO OF THE VERY WORST RACES of this genre (meaning top level open wheel North American Motorsports) that I have EVER SEEN!! I MEAN EVER!!!!!

These two races have made Indy Car look like an absolute laughingstock the past few weeks. If you want to grow the popularity of current Indy Car racing, these two races were not the way to do it.

[Birddog07]

American Racing seems to have a lot more safety car periods (full course cautions) than Europe. It's really not so bad they have them so much, but what really kills me is why they always last so long. There seems to be no urgency most of the time clearing a wreck or whatever. Then when it is finally clear, instead of going green again, they have like 10 minutes behind the safety car. It's ridiculous.

I also can't stand how ugly the cars are. The fronts aren't bad looking, but the rears are terrible. It's not open wheel at all, they may as well put full fenders on the cars. If these cars were racing when I was a kid, I would have never become a fan of the racing.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

Ironically though, both Bourdais and Allmendinger have been in Indycar this year and been nothing but mid-fielders that no one gave a damn about. Which doesn't say much for the Champ Car 2007 field.

And yet Will Power, also a member of the 2007 Champ Car field, is rocking the world. The difference is that Power has a Penske-prepared car and Bourdais doesn't, and Allmendinger wasn't trying all that hard because he wanted back into NASCAR. Put Bourdais in a Penske car and he'd own the world, too.

[Paradise City]

Bourdais would've been a great left field choice for that third Penske seat. Anyhow.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Bourdais would've been a great left field choice for that third Penske seat. Anyhow.

Indeed he woulda been, but that's Montoya's ride now, and JPM if he can get himself into shape and really want it could do some real damage to the established order in a Penske car. And don't think the boys at Ganassi and Andretti don't know it, either - they know who Juan Pablo Montoya is and what he can do. It'll be interesting how confident they are about beating Penske.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by BrentJackson

Indeed he woulda been, but that's Montoya's ride now, and JPM if he can get himself into shape and really want it could do some real damage to the established order in a Penske car. And don't think the boys at Ganassi and Andretti don't know it, either - they know who Juan Pablo Montoya is and what he can do. It'll be interesting how confident they are about beating Penske.

I am not so sure. Dario came back from a Nascar exploration and slotted back into a seat at Ganassi. Now Montoya is coming to Penske, and is allowed some latitude to do Nascar. We'll see how it pans out but what Montoya does do will impact Power and Castroneves in some way.

[Salamus]

Any news on a new title sponsor for next year?

[HJJ]

I have to agree with this.

Indy's new road race: A Band-Aid for a broken arm

by Stephen Cox
Tuesday, October 01, 2013


I love the idea of adding a road race for Indycars at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. What worries me are the reasons for doing it.

In this afternoon's press conference at IMS introducing the new Grand Prix of Indianapolis, Hulman & Co. CEO Mark Miles asked, “What if we could jump start May? Ignite May in a way that brings more people out here?”

“That was the premise. We did a lot of work on it, and we concluded that we ought to concentrate on the weekends. If you think about opening weekend this year... I just had this nagging feeling we can do more. We can give more people a more compelling reason to be here.”

Miles' statement makes several valid points. A) May needs to be ignited. B) The weekends are the weakest point. C) People have no compelling reason to be there.

Tracing the chronology of the problem is easy. When we had interesting cars, big fields and bump days with bumping, people showed up. Now they don't. What to do?

Rather than get interesting cars, bigger fields and bump days with bumping, they just add stuff. They added the Freedom 100. They added the 500 Festival Community Day. They added the Fast Nine qualifying gimmick. They added a car show and Lynyrd Skynyrd and Poison. Now they're adding a road race.

Don't get me wrong. I love the concerts and the Community Day and I go to every Freedom 100. All this stuff (okay, not the “Fast Nine” thing) is really cool and brings enjoyment to the event. But you can add stuff until pigs fly over the frozen Sahara and solve nothing because the core issues that created the problem remain untouched.

When all is said and done, we're still left with underpowered spec cars which still give us artificially bloated operating expenses for teams which still leaves us with small fields which still produce no bumping.

Tony Kanaan spoke a little later and tried to toe the party line. “We haven't changed the tradition,” Kanaan claimed. “Opening Day is still Sunday. It's still going to be the whole month of May of the '500.' The only difference is we have a good race on Saturday, and I'm excited about that.”

Beg to differ, Tony, but we don't have the whole month of May anymore and we've done nothing but change tradition for many years now. IndyCar messed with the cake and the new recipe didn't taste as good. Rather than go back to the original cake, their answer is to keep adding more icing.

Let me emphasize that I absolutely LOVE the idea of the Grand Prix of Indianapolis and I'm all for making new traditions. But Miles started today's press conference by identifying three specific problems - May needs to be ignited, the weekends are the weakest point, and people have no compelling reason to be there.

Will the new grand prix be fun? Heck, yeah. Is it a great idea? Sure it is. Is it the long-term answer to the problems that Miles observed? Nope.

The answers are much simpler. Return to an open chassis and engine formula. Restore qualifying and the full month of May. Reduce downforce and make drivers drive again.

The problems Miles spoke of are not scheduling problems. They are not entertainment issues. They won't be solved with a bigger carnival or a new race or a hotter band.

The IndyCar series has a car problem. Solve that and you won't need a road race.

[Paradise City]

Everyone really agrees with that article except the sports leaders [before Walker antway] and they should be moving gently but unwaveringly in that direction.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Everyone really agrees with that article except the sports leaders [before Walker antway] and they should be moving gently but unwaveringly in that direction.

They are going to have to because I don't see how the series can remain sustainable, especially with falling TV advertising revenue and sponsors either leaving, like series sponsor Izod or reducing their presence and funding like Go-Daddy.

[JacobP]

There are probably only 2-3 teams that can afford the costs associated with an open formula. The rest will struggle with bringing the car to a race, much less staying competitive. I have no problem with the current spec formula, but custom aero kits (as was originally planned) would have been appreciated. I really liked the first leg of the championship up to and including the 500, but something went horribly wrong after it. The Texas snooze-fest. The Detroit weekend a bit too long, the yellow-fest at Sonoma and the crashfest at Baltimore.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JacobP

There are probably only 2-3 teams that can afford the costs associated with an open formula. The rest will struggle with bringing the car to a race, much less staying competitive. I have no problem with the current spec formula, but custom aero kits (as was originally planned) would have been appreciated. I really liked the first leg of the championship up to and including the 500, but something went horribly wrong after it. The Texas snooze-fest. The Detroit weekend a bit too long, the yellow-fest at Sonoma and the crashfest at Baltimore.

Why would the cost of an open formula chassis necessarily be anymore than the cost of the current car? The biggest cost facing teams is spare parts, which they have to buy from Dallara, rather than making their own or buying cheaper from a third party.

[Birddog07]

Open chassis like in F1 with continual development wouldn't work, but open chassis with no development would work. Big teams could maybe even construct their own chassis if they wanted, or at least aero kit onto their purchased chassis. Smaller teams would have competitive options from multiple manufacturers to purchase.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Birddog07

Open chassis like in F1 with continual development wouldn't work, but open chassis with no development would work. Big teams could maybe even construct their own chassis if they wanted, or at least aero kit onto their purchased chassis. Smaller teams would have competitive options from multiple manufacturers to purchase.

The problem with F1 is the FIA has restricted and reigned back the costs of chassis and engine development so much, it's practically a spec series. The is result is the wealthier teams rule the roost; sounds familiar.

I still think the IRL/Iconic committee totally messed up by not choosing Lola, who originally came up with the aero-kit concept and a universal tub that Indy Lights and IndyCar teams could both use, saving Lights teams the cost of a new tub if they wanted to race in IndyCar itself.