Racing Games/Sims - PCs vs Consoles (split)

[JAG]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

Unfortunately the vast majority of the console games really have bone-head AI programming the GT series being particulary bad imo - the cars don't even sound close to the originals for the most part.

Will never forget trying to drive a caterham in GT and the damn thing always understeering no matter what you do to the setup - imo not even close to being realistic, fun maybe but certainly not a sim.

The last GT with a Caterham in it was GT4, that is a title that's 4-5 year's old and on a last generation console, it doesn't compare to the far more realistic GT5P, which itself is now 18 month's old and likely to be outshone considerably by GT5.

2 year's in the console world is an eternity, especially when big hitter's like GT, Forza, and now NFS are pushing the genre forward.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Lazy

For you is the priority in graphics or physics?

Obviously physic's, your under the impression a console 'gamer' doesn't appreciate the sim side, yet this is by far the most important aspect for a significant proportion of GT and Forza 'gamer's', many of which have come the full circle from console to PC, and back to console, as the product, peripheral support and technology has improved.

[1969MGCGTdriver]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

Unfortunately the vast majority of the console games really have bone-head AI programming the GT series being particulary bad imo - the cars don't even sound close to the originals for the most part.

Will never forget trying to drive a caterham in GT and the damn thing always understeering no matter what you do to the setup - imo not even close to being realistic, fun maybe but certainly not a sim.

In FM3 each car is supposed to sound indentical to its real life self.

Additionally, the design team went to each of the real tracks in the game and took thousands of pictures, hours of video and real-time on-site GPS data. The tracks are supposed to be as close to the real thing as there ever has been. I love rFactor, but you guys that are dismissing FM3 because "it's a console game" are going to be missing the boat.

[Gil Abobeleira]

Some points to add to the mix.

Will the Forza3 or Gt5 allow for pure 24 hours race across the internet? (we have that in sims, my team took part in a 24 hour race at Le Mans with a Sauber C9).

Better still, will Forza3 or GT5 allow dedicated servers for 20+ people racing at the same time?

Until things like this are introduced in console sims (and don't tell me that they are difficult things to introduce, Papyrus introduced then long ago with Nascar Racing 2!!!), no console will be a substitute to pc simulators for the truly hardcore simracers (this excludes the simbin games ahahah)

[tlongman]

GT5 will presumably have 24 hour races across the internet with full day/night change, weather, and damage. Nothing has been confirmed but it is presumed that they will have online 24 hour races. Also, GT5 has 16 player online races. Yes its not 20 but its close. It seems to me that none of you PC sim fanboys have even played any console racing sims in the last 5 years. You all should try it. They've come a long way in the last few years.

[R4z3rw33n]

Originally Posted by tlongman

GT5 will presumably have 24 hour races across the internet with full day/night change, weather, and damage. Nothing has been confirmed but it is presumed that they will have online 24 hour races. Also, GT5 has 16 player online races. Yes its not 20 but its close. It seems to me that none of you PC sim fanboys have even played any console racing sims in the last 5 years. You all should try it. They've come a long way in the last few years.

I don't think anybody is debating that they haven't improved. They're just not at the level that pc sim racing is. I considered Forza 1/2 to be a massive improvement over what I had tested in the past on consoles, but at the end of the day they're just glorified eyecandy.

I never considered the online player limit to be much of a problem, but if we're talking sportscar racing it does hold it back a little (my guess is the hardware probably can't handle a full field of cars with massive poly counts - well, the 360, anyway). PC sims are alot more scalable in that respect.

My main issue with console games has always been the physics. Again, Forza 1/2 really raised the bar in terms of realism on the console, but once you start comparing it to the quality of physics in the more well-rounded products/mods in the sim world, the console world isn't so enticing for the enthusiasts (single known exception, RBR). Look at rF mods like GP1979, or CSGT's WSC1970, or iRacing for those that way inclined.

Nothing I have touched on a console has even remotely approached those in terms of 'feeling right.' I understand that's subjective, but having watched the way those cars handled back in the day, and finally testing them, I think that it may be as close as any of us could ever get to driving the real deal.

Have you actually watched the Forza3/908 Lemans lap? If you're holding out for hovercraft physics than I'm sure you'll get some great excitement out of it, but for those of us that actually enjoy something with a little more substance physics wise, we'll be sticking to pc sims for a while yet.

Sure, you get some half-baked mods with PC sim racing, but it's hit/miss, as with anything else third-party. Even if 1/20 of the mods that I download/play contain decent physics packages, I'll be satisfied in knowing that I'm driving something that somebody has put culmination of their creative efforts into.

[KSM86]

simple, console racin games = mates coming over have a few beers and race each other.

rfactor gtr2 and so on for the real racing experience.

hey thats not to say console racing games arnt great, they are fun and such.

[AndrewF31]

I haven't paid much attention to PC Sim racing games lately. Has anything come around that matches the experience of Infogrames' 24 Hours?

[dj choc ice]

Endurance Series is coming out soon and it will more than match LM24 for the PS2 and then some, im hoping for a release this week but no one is sure at this moment in time, only thing that has been said is that it will be coming out soon, here is the trailer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWrY1ebQO4k

cant wait to put 40 of these beasts out on track at le mans or spa

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Gil Abobeleira

Some points to add to the mix.

Will the Forza3 or Gt5 allow for pure 24 hours race across the internet? (we have that in sims, my team took part in a 24 hour race at Le Mans with a Sauber C9).

Better still, will Forza3 or GT5 allow dedicated servers for 20+ people racing at the same time?

Until things like this are introduced in console sims (and don't tell me that they are difficult things to introduce, Papyrus introduced then long ago with Nascar Racing 2!!!), no console will be a substitute to pc simulators for the truly hardcore simracers (this excludes the simbin games ahahah)

I can see where all of this is going, soon 'real' PC sim's will be considered iRacing and such niche subscription service's, anything else will be written off due to console support, or am I just being cynical?

In reality there is no longer a distinction between console's and PC's, only the intention of the development team's. GRID is a console game, but was designed from the outset as an arcade experience, same as any previous NFS title's on console AND PC.

Where as PC technology and game's improve at a gradual rate, console's see large technological leap's with each generation. GT4 was only released 4-5 year's ago on the PS2, but everything about the game is massively dated compared to GT5P, which itself is a glorified demo and 18 month's old. Even on the 360 Forza 3 compared to Forza 2 is night and day, the kind of technolgical leap you don't see on the PC with the same hardware.

Console sim's graphical flair is used as a criticism, as if they can't be matched with great physic's, the fact is I've played the major PC sim's and GT5P stand's upto them all, if someone want's to compare a Ford Focus in GT5P to a 1970's F1 car in rFactor, go ahead, the respective difficulty level isn't down to differing physic's, rather the type of car. When GT5 is released I've no doubt a Group C car or some other powerful machine will match upto anything on the PC in the difficulty stake's.

The goalpost's are continually moving, I consider a sim to be a realistic virtual representation of a car when using a wheel, feature's such as online etc. are just that, extra feaure's, they aren't core to the actual sim driving experience.

Sure I could use a PC sim to race a 24 Hour race, if signed up to a league, but how many people actually do this?

In my experience most people are interested in pick-up and play online race's, the problem with the disperate PC sim audience is the latest and greatest mod attract's most player's, last month's hot mod tend's to be forgotten. At least with the console userbase I know when GT5 is released I'll be able to find 16 player online race's with, at one extreme, 2l hatchback's at Siverstone, and at the other, Le Man's protoypes on the Nordschliefe, plus the abilty to create your own private event's.

Having played pretty much every sim out there I know I'm not missing out sticking with console's, I'm quite confident GT5, NFS Shift and Forza 3 will provide my best sim experiences yet.

[tlongman]

Originally Posted by JAG

I can see where all of this is going, soon 'real' PC sim's will be considered iRacing and such niche subscription service's, anything else will be written off due to console support, or am I just being cynical?

In reality there is no longer a distinction between console's and PC's, only the intention of the development team's. GRID is a console game, but was designed from the outset as an arcade experience, same as any previous NFS title's on console AND PC.

Where as PC technology and game's improve at a gradual rate, console's see large technological leap's with each generation. GT4 was only released 4-5 year's ago on the PS2, but everything about the game is massively dated compared to GT5P, which itself is a glorified demo and 18 month's old. Even on the 360 Forza 3 compared to Forza 2 is night and day, the kind of technolgical leap you don't see on the PC with the same hardware.

Console sim's graphical flair is used as a criticism, as if they can't be matched with great physic's, the fact is I've played the major PC sim's and GT5P stand's upto them all, if someone want's to compare a Ford Focus in GT5P to a 1970's F1 car in rFactor, go ahead, the respective difficulty level isn't down to differing physic's, rather the type of car. When GT5 is released I've no doubt a Group C car or some other powerful machine will match upto anything on the PC in the difficulty stake's.

The goalpost's are continually moving, I consider a sim to be a realistic virtual representation of a car when using a wheel, feature's such as online etc. are just that, extra feaure's, they aren't core to the actual sim driving experience.

Sure I could use a PC sim to race a 24 Hour race, if signed up to a league, but how many people actually do this?

In my experience most people are interested in pick-up and play online race's, the problem with the disperate PC sim audience is the latest and greatest mod attract's most player's, last month's hot mod tend's to be forgotten. At least with the console userbase I know when GT5 is released I'll be able to find 16 player online race's with, at one extreme, 2l hatchback's at Siverstone, and at the other, Le Man's protoypes on the Nordschliefe, plus the abilty to create your own private event's.

Having played pretty much every sim out there I know I'm not missing out sticking with console's, I'm quite confident GT5, NFS Shift and Forza 3 will provide my best sim experiences yet.

Wow. Great post. Excellently put JAG.

[ROB IS THE STIG]

+1

Great post.

[R4z3rw33n]

Originally Posted by JAG

I can see where all of this is going, soon 'real' PC sim's will be considered iRacing and such niche subscription service's, anything else will be written off due to console support, or am I just being cynical?

That's not the case at all. It's already conceited that RBR was a fantastic game and is up to sim quality standards. The commonly held mindset from the console side of the table seems to be that we haven't tested or used these games at all. I own an Xbox 360, and I don't own any racing products because none of them are up to my standards. As elitist as that may sound, it's the truth for myself and many others.

Originally Posted by JAG

In reality there is no longer a distinction between console's and PC's, only the intention of the development team's. GRID is a console game, but was designed from the outset as an arcade experience, same as any previous NFS title's on console AND PC.

The hardware is similar (if not the same, in most cases) but core differences (covered below) need to be looked at.

Originally Posted by JAG

Where as PC technology and game's improve at a gradual rate, console's see large technological leap's with each generation. GT4 was only released 4-5 year's ago on the PS2, but everything about the game is massively dated compared to GT5P, which itself is a glorified demo and 18 month's old. Even on the 360 Forza 3 compared to Forza 2 is night and day, the kind of technolgical leap you don't see on the PC with the same hardware.

If you're talking about the amount of processing power available, that may have something to do with the fact that current generation consoles were designed with life cycles of up to ten years (See: PS3). The console development teams are always designing for set hardware and thus their code is always going to be far more optimised. Whereas pc sim developers are developing for hundreds of different hardware combinations, changing api's, and different input devices (i.e. Motion setups, headtracking gear etc).

Originally Posted by JAG

Console sim's graphical flair is used as a criticism, as if they can't be matched with great physic's, the fact is I've played the major PC sim's and GT5P stand's upto them all, if someone want's to compare a Ford Focus in GT5P to a 1970's F1 car in rFactor, go ahead, the respective difficulty level isn't down to differing physic's, rather the type of car. When GT5 is released I've no doubt a Group C car or some other powerful machine will match upto anything on the PC in the difficulty stake's.

How would it be fair to compare a late model focus to a 1970's open wheeler? It's not a direct comparision. The logic is flawed. The fact of the matter is, we know and would like the graphical flair in console products to be matched with some prowess in the form of physics. However it hasn't happened.

Something else that needs clearing up is that there seems to be an illusion that realism is in direct correlation with difficulty. This is the case in some ways, but not entirely. That was, and probably still is the issue many sim racers still have with console games.

The developer adds a few difficulty levels, changes some variables (i.e. handling stiffness/grip levels) which simply make the car harder to drive and claims it's product is the next completely accurate, world beating simulator (I'm looking at you Codemasters/EA - and the finger will be pointed as long as they market their games as sims).

I think the reality here is that alot of sim racers know that current pc sims are starting to look a bit dated. That isn't even a debate anymore. rFactor was released in 2005, RBR in 2004. I think it's reasonable to expect that any device or software release half a decade old is going to look aged when compared to newer, updated versions released 2+ years after it, let alone 4-5+.

If we were all so fixated on the false truth that eyecandy has proved to be (in some cases), we would have made the move to these supposedly superior console sims quite a while ago, but the fact of the matter is what we have currently is still the best provider for the experience we desire (even if we have to sort the worthwhile from the not-so-worthwhile).

At the end of the day, I think I know where my priorities lie. Yes, it would be fantastic if we could have a sim with the visuals of Forza3, physics of iRacing or rFactor, and audio quality that some rFactor mods produce, but unless some seismic priority shift occurs within the industry we'll be waiting a while yet.

Originally Posted by JAG

The goalpost's are continually moving, I consider a sim to be a realistic virtual representation of a car when using a wheel, feature's such as online etc. are just that, extra feaure's, they aren't core to the actual sim driving experience.

Sure I could use a PC sim to race a 24 Hour race, if signed up to a league, but how many people actually do this?

This one, I somewhat agree on. The 24 hour experience isn't used by many, but it is an essential part of the experience to those that want to use it. Believe it or not, there are groups that participate in 24 hour sim races, and it's something I'm looking at getting involved with in the future.

Originally Posted by JAG

In my experience most people are interested in pick-up and play online race's, the problem with the disperate PC sim audience is the latest and greatest mod attract's most player's, last month's hot mod tend's to be forgotten. At least with the console userbase I know when GT5 is released I'll be able to find 16 player online race's with, at one extreme, 2l hatchback's at Siverstone, and at the other, Le Man's protoypes on the Nordschliefe, plus the abilty to create your own private event's.

That's right 'most people.' Sim racers aren't a very large portion of the market.
I can sympathise with the online woes, not everybody likes driving Meganes or oval races all day (myself included), file mismatches are something that needs to be looked at. Certain developers have already announced they'll be looking into p2p systems to better handle this problem in the future.

Your words not mine:

Originally Posted by JAG

feature's such as online etc. are just that, extra feaure's, they aren't core to the actual sim driving experience.

As far back as I can remember, there's always been a case of console players screaming 'we're comparable' to pc players (See: FPS keyboard/mouse vs controller argument). The fact of the matter is, the quality of the game is dumbed down to cater for the needs of a larger audience. It's as simple as that.

Originally Posted by JAG

Having played pretty much every sim out there I know I'm not missing out sticking with console's, I'm quite confident GT5, NFS Shift and Forza 3 will provide my best sim experiences yet.

The term 'experience' seems to be pretty subjective here. For some people it's visual representation, for others it's audio/physics, and for some it's the combination that makes a well produced product. You're going to use whatever brings you excitement/happiness. For some of us excitement comes in the form of accurately handling vehicles/minor details, for others it's visual representation or ease of use. Some of us obviously have different definitions of what does/doesn't constitute a sim, and by the looks of it we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[JAG]

The fact of the matter is, the quality of the game is dumbed down to cater for the needs of a larger audience. It's as simple as that.

This is the core of your argument, but in my experience it doesn't stand upto scrutiny.

GT5P with a wheel and the correct setting's is a match for any PC sim experience I've had, yet at the same time GT5P can be played with a pad and all manner of driving aid's, making it accessible, that's a neccessity of a console title, but doesn't diminish the sim side.

Pretty much all of the argument's revolve around old title's, I'm not interested in those, I'm interested in GT5(P), NFS Shift and Forza 3, these are the game's that have pushed me from the PC.

There was a time when the PC was king of the first person shooter, these day's the mouse/keyboard control method may be prefared by some, but console's are the lead FPS platform's.

I see the sim market following suit because,

a/ Console user's on average are getting older.

b/ There are no longer any technological or peripheral barrier's.

c/ Despite mod creater's best effort's, they're now struggling to match the consistent quality and output of professional development team's, DLC will widen the gap further.

[Spudgun]

Ok, It seems the second Forza Motorsport 3 thread got out of hand. All the posts related to Forza 3 have been moved to the existing thread. All those non-specific posts (most of them!) have been moved to this thread.

One or two posts pointing out the issues with the old thread have been removed as they would now be out of context.

Please can we try and keep threads on-topic.

[DAVID PATERSON]

A couple of years agao, I got a PS2 & GT4 and loved it, mostly. A couple of months ago, I got a decent PC and rFactor. My PS2 has been gathering dust ever since.

GT4 is a great DRIVING simulator. rFactor is a great RACING simulator.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

A couple of years agao, I got a PS2 & GT4 and loved it, mostly. A couple of months ago, I got a decent PC and rFactor. My PS2 has been gathering dust ever since.

GT4 is a great DRIVING simulator. rFactor is a great RACING simulator.

I agree with you on that one.

Nothing beats an online run in the latest F430/997 RSR mod with GTREvo on my PC. It'll still take a while for consoles to match that.
I also agree consoles are handicaped by having to satisfy many customers,from the spoiled 9 year old with his gamepad,to the obsessed 8 hours a day racers in their racingseats.
Consoles will never be able to cater for the real hardcore simracers. They'll allways play the game of catch up.

I am buying a PS3 as soon as GT5 is released(next decade) though.
If not just for the many hundreds of great cars and fantastic graphics...

[nickyf1]

I tell ya what, Ive been having some great fun on Forza 2 the past few days online, setting up some old RWD D Class cars and ending up with races against a Lotus Elan, a Buick Regal, a Renault 5 Turbo, BMW CSL... fantastic racing! Especialy around the tight Tsukuba Circuit. Also some touring car stuff with BMW's, SEAT's etc, fantastic racing, fantastic fun

[SennaTheGreat]

Some of that racing Nicky has been 1st class aswell. You and Stowe aswell Nicky. You slowing down enough