[BTCC] NGTC: Which cars do you wanna see?

[Hazard]

I'm afraid what action has or hasn't been taken is up to discuss here, but sorry - but no intelligent debate can be fuelled with phrasing such us...

"err, get your facts straight" every single time! - It'sunnecessarly adversarial and completely contrary to intelligent debate.

I agree that most of the points were intelligent and thought out, and interesting points and views on this issue were being raised by all 'sides' - but I do not feel like I was reading an intelligent debate because of the negative spiel that was accompanying every post.

If anyone wishes to discuss this further, feel free to PM me. This thread and forum is about motorsport. Please do not post further regarding this issue.

Thank you.

[Madd_Dogg88]

So, back on topic!!

My top 5 would have to be (and forgive me if I have been foolish and made ineligible suggestions...):
1. Alfa 159
2. Volvo S40
3. Audi A4
4. Honda Accord
5. Toyota Avensis

They all, for me, stink of good old ST type racing, and all look like they would make decent racing cars. While it's nice to have cars with innovative, exciting styling, such as the Vectra (not so much the Insignia, which just looks like a toy to me), Laguna, 407, C5 they just look a bit too bizarre as racing cars I reckon.

[Mike Sheraton]

again, forgive me if my cars do not apply but i would love to see the following manufacturers enter, and i know i am being vague but just to bring back memories.
Ford
Vauxhall
Audi
Honda
Renalt
Seat

[Hazard]

Originally Posted by Mike Sheraton

again, forgive me if my cars do not apply but i would love to see the following manufacturers enter, and i know i am being vague but just to bring back memories.
Ford
Vauxhall
Audi
Honda
Renalt
Seat

Seems very familiar, all bar the SEAT What was wrong with the Volvo's and Nissan's

Actually, that said, Nissan don't make an eligible car since they don't produce any proper saloon's or even large hatchback's any more.

[Mike Sheraton]

exactly my thoughts and yes i would love volvo aswell and they are a big chance with the S60 and i forgot about them
i included SEAT because they are always a possibility

[davyboy]

Assuming they will all be three box saloons, and BMW remain confined to the spectator car parks I'd like to see the Alfa 159 and the Saab 9-3 I think. Some other options to consider...

o Mitsubishi Lancer
o Citroen C5
o Mazda 6
o Skoda Octavia
o Toyota Avensis
o Volkswagen Passat

[touringlegend]

Subaru Legacy anyone ?

[FIRE]

Nice looking car but is AWD

[touringlegend]

Forgot that! Can the AWD be disabled under the rules I wonder?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

Forgot that! Can the AWD be disabled under the rules I wonder?

I just posed the same question on the other thread.

[Mike Sheraton]

i have your answer,

Alan Gow:
"The original vehicle can have any drive-train format (front, rear or four wheel drive). But when it is built to the new regulations it has to be FWD."

so yes whatever the drivetrain format, it can be changed by the teams as they wish aslong as they end up fwd

[andy97]

I don't know whether these cars meet the length/ wheelbase/ no of doors criteria but I'd like to see cars such as the Alfa Brera & VW Scirroco also be eligible.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by andy97

I don't know whether these cars meet the length/ wheelbase/ no of doors criteria but I'd like to see cars such as the Alfa Brera & VW Scirroco also be eligible.

I think only 4 and 5 door cars will be eligible... but yes I agree with you, it would be fantastic to see coupes out there too. A throwback to the 1970s when you had Capris, Scirrocos and RX7s mixing it with Dollys etc...

[StevenC]

Originally Posted by Mike Sheraton

i have your answer,

Alan Gow:
"The original vehicle can have any drive-train format (front, rear or four wheel drive). But when it is built to the new regulations it has to be FWD."

so yes whatever the drivetrain format, it can be changed by the teams as they wish aslong as they end up fwd

So a BMW could still enter!?!

Although rear wheel drive has always been their main selling point so not sure it would be worth the hassle.

It would be great to see an offering from Jaguar back in the BTCC.

[Speed-King]

Hmm, the X-Type is already FWD so that wouldn't be the problem, but could the 2.5l V6 be sleeved down to 2liters or would they have to go for something from the Tata-shelf(humilating!) or the TOCA-engine (lame!)?

I'd love to see it!

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Hmm, the X-Type is already FWD so that wouldn't be the problem, but could the 2.5l V6 be sleeved down to 2liters or would they have to go for something from the Tata-shelf(humilating!) or the TOCA-engine (lame!)?

I'd love to see it!

I don't think Tata Motors make a two liter four-pot. I am unsure about the number of cylinders, but it would probably be cheaper to go for the TOCA lump. The TOCA engine is probably the best part of this scheme, really.

One thing that needs clarifying is the power output, once S2000 cars are phased out the plan is to increase the power - 300hp with push to pass or 350 or so with P2P? I'd rather push to pass was dropped as an idea.

[Speed-King]

Just read that there's probably another problem with a possible Jaguar offering: The X-Type-production will end in 2010 without a direct replacement as Jaguar wants to move more towards the Luxury segment and out of the Premium segment where they have a hard time competing against Merc, BMW and Audi, so touring cars will probably be no longer relevant to them.

[Thorney]

I thinks it one of the reasons TOCA have gone for a 2l FI engine rather than the 1.6 choice of WTCC, 2l is easy to get 300bhp from a road engine let alone a decent spec race lump, I cant see much of an issue of moving up to 400bhp in race spec from same engine.......a 1.6 would be stressed to oblivion to get that kind of power. With decent work we can get 400bhp out of a GM 2.0LET engine (VX220) and the 2.0LEH from the Astra VXR, even road car conversions run up to 330bhp without bottom end work. Proper crank, bottom end, cams, head and cooling and decent roller bearing turbo and 400bhp is relatively straightforward for around £10k - a lot for a road car (we have done a few) but dirt cheap compared to BMW 2.0 NA engines from what I know.

[davyboy]

If the backbone of the series is to be privateers, I think the vast majority of them will go for the TOCA powertrain... you'd be mad to try and do something on your own to be honest.

Getting back to the shells, are the current S2000 shells seam welded ? There's a fair amount that goes into preparing the shell, designing the cage etc... Now the standard front and rear subframes will take a degree of complexity out of the equation, but the rigidity of the bit in the middle will become a crucial factor.

[werner]

Originally Posted by davyboy

If the backbone of the series is to be privateers, I think the vast majority of them will go for the TOCA powertrain... you'd be mad to try and do something on your own to be honest.

Wel, that depends on the performance of that engine. If a team thinks it is able to built a better engine....

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by werner

Wel, that depends on the performance of that engine. If a team thinks it is able to built a better engine....

... if the team has the money to do so of course. More than half the current grid know they could do better if they had the funds to acquire and run a more performant car... they don't unfortunately.

[Thorney]

Completely agree on both points, the centre chassis development is crucial and where teams large and small can make huge differences without massive budgets, the idea that manufacturers are the only people who can do this is simply not true, its easier for them of course but at the same time very expensive. Same applies to engine development, BMW are the only people thus far offering kitted cars to teams and the re-build costs are phenominal leading to high running costs and heavy restrictions on what the teams can do to them. However develop the engine in isolation from the manufacturer and a similar level of performance can be achieved for much less cost however at the expense of a massive amount of time, hence teams go with the manufacturer supplied unit and pick up the bill, the difficulty is homologation, build your own engine and you need it homologated, use a TOCA engine and this is all sorted.

We have a few options open to us, buy existing cars and modify to new NGTC regs, build our own cars utilising manufacturer support or build our own cars using TOCA supplied engines. At the moment though there is too little detail to make any real decision.

[StevenC]

Just a though any offering from VAG should be strong as their 2ltr turbo unit from the Golf gti, amongst others, is a strong engine and already runs 265bhp in the audi S3.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by StevenC

Just a though any offering from VAG should be strong as their 2ltr turbo unit from the Golf gti, amongst others, is a strong engine and already runs 265bhp in the audi S3.

It really depends on what its like adapted to NGTC spec. though. The devil's in the detail with this kind of thing and that's where the development walla ends up being spent.

At the risk of being a RWD stuck record... I'd love to see Mercedes Benz in the BTCC with the C class too. In fact it would be brilliant to see as many different manufacturers as possible, sporting RWD, FWD and AWD. When the BTCC had variety [i.e. in the 1970s, 1980s and at the pinnacle of the ST days] it was always at its best.

[StevenC]

I would agree.

The best thing about the BTCC has always been the variety on offer be that the cars, the drivers or the tracks.

I did notice that Alan Gow said in his interview on last weekends coverage at Croft that they hadn't totally ruled out RWD so there may yet be some changes to the new regs.