How Do We Judge a Marshal's Abilities?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Don't forget the third factor in that equation: training.

Very true. I'd sub-conciously included that in experience, but you're right to treat it as a separate criteria.

[Sparky-steve]

this thread is great, gives us a good idea of why's and wherefores as we get to post.

some threads have mentioned experience. well yes i can see this as being vital,
but how would you get a newbie/newish marshal involved to gain the experience?
watching is only a small part of it, getting stuck in is surely the better way, but i can see a cautious approach to this, as things need to be done quickly and safely especially on a live track?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

getting stuck in is surely the better way

Yep, there's no substitute for doing it.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

but how would you get a newbie/newish marshal involved to gain the experience?

Being involved doesn't just mean being on-track.
Some of the best lessons that I have learnt have been whilst on another post but with an experienced marshal explaining just what the other marshals are doing and why.
Far more important, and safer, than any actual incidents.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Yep, there's no substitute for doing it.

only so long as you have the right person along side you.

[Alan.F]

I have been marshalling now for 3 seasons and only upgraded to green at the end of last season, And in my short time i have been fortunate or unfortunate as the case maybe to have had to deal with several rather large incidents , flying legends large XR2/3 pile up and a bad mighty mini crash plus others all at Oulton. so i would say i have had my fair share, and the superb training and support i was given after the legend thing has helped me become a better marshal BUT whem i am stood there with 20-30 cars hurtling towards me i still have that knot in my stomache wondering how i will react when it come to the crunch.

What i thin i am trying to say is no matter how much or how little experience you have i think most will still have that thing in thet back of there mind of how they will react.

Sorry for my waffle

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

Being involved doesn't just mean being on-track.
Some of the best lessons that I have learnt have been whilst on another post but with an experienced marshal explaining just what the other marshals are doing and why.
Far more important, and safer, than any actual incidents.

yes i agree, it a very good learning experience, gives me chance to ask those silly questions and get very good answers back.
also this is useful listening to scanner traffic, to ask those questions too.
(only if safe to do so etc!!)

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

only so long as you have the right person along side you.

that's the answer i was wondering about in post 78#
how do IO's pair us up, to allow learning, and have the right person with us?

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by Alan.F

when i am stood there with 20-30 cars hurtling towards me i still have that knot in my stomache wondering how i will react when it come to the crunch.

What i thin i am trying to say is no matter how much or how little experience you have i think most will still have that thing in thet back of there mind of how they will react.

Sorry for my waffle

how do you know how you would react??
each incident if different, and needs to be dealt as and when needed.
with me yes i do ask myself that question too, and for a split second ask "what the heck do i do???" but when you/ I get out there and do the job the training, experience and the knowledge passed to you from chatting with other marshal's just kicks in, and things get done

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

how do IO's pair us up, to allow learning, and have the right person with us?

Well, if the grading system is working, a green badge means you don't need to be looked after, and a red badge means you're considered able to guide and train newer marshals.

Which makes the original question 'what to do if you don't trust the result of the grading system'? You can only go with what you know and try to learn what you don't know about your colleages on the day, and trust your instincts to make the right decision.

[SouthportFC Fan]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

that's the answer i was wondering about in post 78#
how do IO's pair us up, to allow learning, and have the right person with us?

By looking at the more experienced members of the team and seeing how they act before the action starts. Are they communicators, are they the shy, silent type ? Are any of them IOs having a day off ?

Then I start pairing the team off in my mind. I put the least experienced trainee with the most communicative experienced marshal and initially put them at the best point to observe, so that the experienced marshal can talk through any incidents or situations happening around the post to other pairs.

I then put the next team together by pairing the next trainee experience-wise with the second most experienced marshal, etc., etc. That way I get the trainees being involved and trained, and a consistent ability of pairs around the post.

I then watch out for pairs that aren't talking to each other so much and then intervene, maybe talking to a trainee myself about a visible incident being handled by another post, or making a point of debriefing a trainee after a simple incident like a pulloff into a safe area that they have been involved with.

If it's a multiday meeting, I'll then pair up the trainees with different experienced marshals on the subsequent days.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

that's the answer i was wondering about in post 78#
how do IO's pair us up, to allow learning, and have the right person with us?

Here's what I said in the "IO Advice" thread a couple of years ago:

"All things being equal, I'm happy to let pairing happen naturally. However, all things are seldom equal.

The main aim is to ensure that expertise & experience are equally distributed through the team so that the job can be done as safely & efficiently as possible.

For me, the primary criterion is grade, but that is far from the only consideration - there are some people whose ability exceeds their grading, others (thankfully very few) who don't perform to the expected level.

Look out for potential conflicts - there are some people who can't or won't work together. At one time, if I had two miserable sods on post, I'd split them up; now, I put them together - no point in four people having a miserable day! You will have people who normally work together. Sometimes, because of the make-up of your team, you'll have to ask them to split up; explain tactfully why you need to do this.

Pay particular attention the needs of trainees; the best incident marshal isn't necessarily the best person to pair a trainee with - you need somebody who can both encourage the trainee & pass on their knowledge effectively. The best people for this are often those who haven't been marshalling very long - they can remember what it's like to be a trainee."

If you're interested in reading a bit more on the subject, the "IO Advice" thread is here:

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...18112#poststop

[HairyDJ]

Originally Posted by SouthportFC Fan

I then watch out for pairs that aren't talking to each other so much and then intervene, maybe talking to a trainee myself about a visible incident being handled by another post, or making a point of debriefing a trainee after a simple incident like a pulloff into a safe area that they have been involved with.

If it's a multiday meeting, I'll then pair up the trainees with different experienced marshals on the subsequent days.

Excellent to see these techniques - oh, the luxury of so many troops to draw on

The constant monitoring for pairings that don't seem to be working could make such a difference to the trainee's early impressions.

Keeping the variety gets my thumbs up - if the trainee hears the same basic things both days it hopefully reinforces better than hearing it from the same person each day.

Any thoughts on the IO keeping a rookie close to them instead of paired off? I've heard the argument that they want to keep tighter supervision as well as feeling the IO has more expertise to pass on. Conversely, I've "rescued / inherited" a rookie who was "parked" whilst the IO was managing a big incident - would have been better for us both if we'd been chatting together for even just a few minutes.

[SouthportFC Fan]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Any thoughts on the IO keeping a rookie close to them instead of paired off?

If I have a 'first or second' meeting trainee then I consider if it's better for him/her to be with me, but it depends on their demeanour. Also, if they're an older new starter with the right demeanour, i.e. they seem to have a modicum of common sense, and it's their second meeting, I may well pair them up with an experienced marshal. If it's a younger new starter, then I'll want them close. I may be making assumptions, but, in my experience, it's the younger newies that act then think !!

[The Fat Clerk]

[QUOTE=Dave Brand;2692516]Here's what I said in the "IO Advice" thread a couple of years ago:


For me, the primary criterion is grade, but that is far from the only consideration - there are some people whose ability exceeds their grading, others (thankfully very few) who don't perform to the expected level.

Hear, hear

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Any thoughts on the IO keeping a rookie close to them instead of paired off? I've heard the argument that they want to keep tighter supervision as well as feeling the IO has more expertise to pass on. Conversely, I've "rescued / inherited" a rookie who was "parked" whilst the IO was managing a big incident - would have been better for us both if we'd been chatting together for even just a few minutes.

My personal preference would be not to keep them with the IO. If it's somebody who's done the "walkabout" in the morning, ideally I'd give them one session with the Post Chief, a session with the IO, a session with a flaggie & then put them with a pair of more experienced marshals so that they can get a broad insight into how the post is run, with the proviso that I don't want them going onto a live track.

If it's their first full day, if possible put them as the third member of a group, otherwise, pair them up with somebody who will look after them. That's the way I was treated as a trainee - worked for me!

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

My personal preference would be not to keep them with the IO. If it's somebody who's done the "walkabout" in the morning, ideally I'd give them one session with the Post Chief, a session with the IO, a session with a flaggie & then put them with a pair of more experienced marshals so that they can get a broad insight into how the post is run, with the proviso that I don't want them going onto a live track.

If it's their first full day, if possible put them as the third member of a group, otherwise, pair them up with somebody who will look after them. That's the way I was treated as a trainee - worked for me!

me too,
thanks for all those replies, yeah i can see this happening when I've got on post. always had a great partner,and learned lots every meet, incidents or not.

[Nighthawk]

I have a moan...and i can bet no one has a real answer......
upgrades....Why do some get upgrades so fast and lack the experiance required to do the job that there grade expects of them.....
12 months from trainee to experianced marshal.. i dont agree with and as a examining P.C.. i would not sign card and would defend my decision...
So is there a course of action that can be taken with the MSA or club to object to such upgrades i fear not....

[Richard Duvall]

Originally Posted by bloodhound

I have a moan...and i can bet no one has a real answer......
upgrades....Why do some get upgrades so fast and lack the experiance required to do the job that there grade expects of them.....
12 months from trainee to experianced marshal.. i dont agree with and as a examining P.C.. i would not sign card and would defend my decision...
So is there a course of action that can be taken with the MSA or club to object to such upgrades i fear not....

Hasn't this subject already been done to death in other threads?

[Nighthawk]

Yes it has..but...There is no one at whom the book stops..
I have concerns a over a marshal who is upgrading i feel its going to effect others on post with him as he is in my opinion a libility to himself and those he is working with due to lack of experiance and age...
his upgrade i feel is to soon

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by bloodhound

I have a moan...and i can bet no one has a real answer......
upgrades....Why do some get upgrades so fast and lack the experiance required to do the job that there grade expects of them.....
12 months from trainee to experianced marshal.. i dont agree with and as a examining P.C.. i would not sign card and would defend my decision...
So is there a course of action that can be taken with the MSA or club to object to such upgrades i fear not....

strange, you sound exactly like Nighthawk.....
even down to the sig line.

[Oscar114]

Originally Posted by bloodhound

I have a moan...and i can bet no one has a real answer......
upgrades....Why do some get upgrades so fast and lack the experiance required to do the job that there grade expects of them.....
12 months from trainee to experianced marshal.. i dont agree with and as a examining P.C.. i would not sign card and would defend my decision...
So is there a course of action that can be taken with the MSA or club to object to such upgrades i fear not....

Surely the required number of training days alone should prevent this as when you upgrade all of your training prior to this gets wiped out even if you have enough for 2 grades jump in one season. That is unless there are some regions doing mid-season training sessions.

1 training day trainee to track
2 training days track to experienced track!

[Nighthawk]

bodysnatcher.. you are correct it was nighthawk....

[Piglet]

If you have concerns about upgrading then talk to the Chief Marshal who will be able to advise. Otherwise, I don't think Tenths is the place to discuss specifics of individuals you have concerns about.

[Nighthawk]

oh here comes the slapped hand.......tried the chief marshal route.... might aswell talk to the wall.....