Official Driver of the race - Suzuka - Page 4

Mr V · 10 Oct 2012, 17:27 (Ref:3149544)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catingaround

It's hard to determine his true skill level when racing for a team with the largest pockets funding (arguably) the best engineer. The kid is quick, very quick, and seems to display very high intelligence and the ability to improve.

In the past few years the RBR cars have been a force, in time maybe we'll see Seb find success in a different car. We may even be debating him as driver of this generation, not just race.

Thats a fair point, but what i would say is that, had Seb not been in that car, RBR most likely would currently have no WDC's or WCC's.

It's easy to say so and so only won because the car was so good, but Mark hasn't been second in the Championship these last 2 years, so had Seb not been there, the likelyhood is that the title would have gone elsewhere.

Martin Brundle used to say that the Ferrari was only as quick as Eddie Irvine, Michael's skill made it that bit faster, i believe that we are seeing the same again with Seb and Red Bull.

**Aysedasi** · 10 Oct 2012, 17:56 (Ref:3149560)

I'm not convinced of that. You can't just remove Vettel from the equation and say without him RB wouldn't have won the WDC. Vettel is just one dynamic (admittedly a significant one) within that team. I suspect there are 3-4 other drivers who could have won at least one of those titles in that car.

Anyhow, any other votes for DOTR.....?

wnut · 10 Oct 2012, 23:56 (Ref:3149675)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

Thats a fair point, but what i would say is that, had Seb not been in that car, RBR most likely would currently have no WDC's or WCC's.

It's easy to say so and so only won because the car was so good, but Mark hasn't been second in the Championship these last 2 years, so had Seb not been there, the likelyhood is that the title would have gone elsewhere.

Martin Brundle used to say that the Ferrari was only as quick as Eddie Irvine, Michael's skill made it that bit faster, i believe that we are seeing the same again with Seb and Red Bull.

+1

His team mate kind of made it look pretty difficult on Sunday!
Botched start, mistake on the first turn and pinned!

Vettel 09 - 2012 scored 922 championship points
Webber 09 - 2012 scored 703.5 championship points.

Vettel 08 in a Toro Rosso 35 points
Webber 08 RBR 21 points

Says it all really.

ztnedman1 · 11 Oct 2012, 04:29 (Ref:3149739)

Everyone is quick to give Newey credit for making the cars quick. If its anyone else then its the driver who is a great developer.

How do we not know if Vettel is not just incrediably gifted when it comes to developing the car throughout the season. Ive heard he is always around the engineers try to constantly learn. The RB8 improvement is likely due to more than just Newey.

**Aysedasi** · 11 Oct 2012, 07:22 (Ref:3149776)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

+1

His team mate kind of made it look pretty difficult on Sunday!
Botched start, mistake on the first turn and pinned!

Vettel 09 - 2012 scored 922 championship points
Webber 09 - 2012 scored 703.5 championship points.

Vettel 08 in a Toro Rosso 35 points
Webber 08 RBR 21 points

Says it all really.

Not really - all you're doing is comparing Vettel and Webber in a Red Bull. Not Vettel and anyone else.....

QnickFTW · 11 Oct 2012, 12:06 (Ref:3149918)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

+1

His team mate kind of made it look pretty difficult on Sunday!
Botched start, mistake on the first turn and pinned!

Vettel 09 - 2012 scored 922 championship points
Webber 09 - 2012 scored 703.5 championship points.

Vettel 08 in a Toro Rosso 35 points
Webber 08 RBR 21 points

Says it all really.

Quite amazing stats. Here is how the drivers who we would call "top drivers" scored over the last 4 seasons (from the first race of 2008 all the way to 2012 Japan last week)

VET - 957 (driving for RBR's satellite team STR in 2008!!!)
ALO - 790 (driving for Renault in 2008 and 2009!!!)
HAM - 763 (ALWAYS driving for Mclaren)
WEB - 724.5 (ALWAYS driving for RBR)
BUT - 713 (driving for Honda in 2008, scoring only 3 points!!!)

Out of the 5 guys only Webbo and Hamilton had the pleasure of driving for a top team all four years, yet numbers seem to suggest they didnt quite make the most out of it.

Just for the record, Webber's team-mate could have been Ma Quing Hua for all these years, he would still not be a world champion today and Vettel is cruising towards his 3rd title. So much for the car/driver debate.

**Bononi** · 11 Oct 2012, 18:03 (Ref:3150056)

Who's Ma Quin Hua anyway ?

jedrinck · 11 Oct 2012, 18:06 (Ref:3150058)

Remember that with a slower teammate Webber would have collected a lot more points and it's not unlikely he would have won the 2011 title with say Coulthard as teammate. Provided the car would have been as good as it was without Vettel's development input.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 11 Oct 2012, 18:22 (Ref:3150061)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

Who's Ma Quin Hua anyway ?

Apparently Ma Quinghua is a Chinese racing driver, who is currently a test driver for HRT.

QnickFTW · 11 Oct 2012, 18:41 (Ref:3150070)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jedrinck

Remember that with a slower teammate Webber would have collected a lot more points and it's not unlikely he would have won the 2011 title with say Coulthard as teammate. Provided the car would have been as good as it was without Vettel's development input.

Sorry thats a rubbish argument, with Vettel's theoretical absent not just Webber but certainly Alonso, Hamilton and Button would have scored more points so that makes zero sense. Webber was unable to beat Button in an RBR in 2011 so he would not have been champion full stop.

(also he is currently unable to beat Raikkonen, Alonso and Hamilton in an RBR those are drivers of 3 different teams mind you)

**Bononi** · 11 Oct 2012, 20:10 (Ref:3150100)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Apparently Ma Quinghua is a Chinese racing driver, who is currently a test driver for HRT.

Oh that Ma, who is different from Ma Quin Hua !

**Aysedasi** · 11 Oct 2012, 20:23 (Ref:3150108)

Quote:

Originally Posted by QnickFTW

Just for the record, Webber's team-mate could have been Ma Quing Hua for all these years, he would still not be a world champion today and Vettel is cruising towards his 3rd title. So much for the car/driver debate.

That, we simply will never know.

He may well win the WDC. If he does, good luck to him, but I sincerely hope he doesn't cruise it.

Catingaround · 11 Oct 2012, 21:35 (Ref:3150135)

Quote:

Originally Posted by QnickFTW

Quite amazing stats. Here is how the drivers who we would call "top drivers" scored over the last 4 seasons (from the first race of 2008 all the way to 2012 Japan last week)

VET - 957 (driving for RBR's satellite team STR in 2008!!!)
ALO - 790 (driving for Renault in 2008 and 2009!!!)
HAM - 763 (ALWAYS driving for Mclaren)
WEB - 724.5 (ALWAYS driving for RBR)
BUT - 713 (driving for Honda in 2008, scoring only 3 points!!!)

Out of the 5 guys only Webbo and Hamilton had the pleasure of driving for a top team all four years, yet numbers seem to suggest they didnt quite make the most out of it.

Fun

Wins from the first race of 2008 all the way to 2012 Japan last week:

VET - 24
HAM - 16
BUT - 13
ALO - 11
WEB - 9

**bjohnsonsmith** · 11 Oct 2012, 22:28 (Ref:3150162)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bononi

Oh that Ma, who is different from Ma Quin Hua !

Yep, him. I've even seen his name written like this, Qinghua Ma. I think something may have been lost in translation.

.

wnut · 12 Oct 2012, 07:58 (Ref:3150288)

Quote:

Originally Posted by QnickFTW

Quite amazing stats. Here is how the drivers who we would call "top drivers" scored over the last 4 seasons (from the first race of 2008 all the way to 2012 Japan last week)

VET - 957 (driving for RBR's satellite team STR in 2008!!!)
ALO - 790 (driving for Renault in 2008 and 2009!!!)
HAM - 763 (ALWAYS driving for Mclaren)
WEB - 724.5 (ALWAYS driving for RBR)
BUT - 713 (driving for Honda in 2008, scoring only 3 points!!!)

Out of the 5 guys only Webbo and Hamilton had the pleasure of driving for a top team all four years, yet numbers seem to suggest they didnt quite make the most out of it.

Just for the record, Webber's team-mate could have been Ma Quing Hua for all these years, he would still not be a world champion today and Vettel is cruising towards his 3rd title. So much for the car/driver debate.

Fascinating!

Wonder what Aysedasi will find fault with now?
(They weren't in the same car.

)

Sorry Ayse!

**Aysedasi** · 12 Oct 2012, 08:29 (Ref:3150302)

You're still not getting my point at all. The whole point is that you're making assumptions of what another team-mate would have done against Vettel in a RB. It can't be done. Some one other than Webber might have blown him away - or might not have done. Comparing what Webber did or how many points the other 'stars' gained in their cars is quite literally 'pointless'. It gives you no evidence at all as to what any one of them would have achieved in a RB up against him.

Look, I accept Vettel is a great driver, but I'm not about to worship him....

And all this has nothing to do with who was DOTR at Suzuka!!

**Born Racer** · 14 Oct 2012, 05:27 (Ref:3151299)

Kamui. That Sauber's a fine race car, but still, to hold off Button's McLaren for the podium was a top job.

Could so easily vote for Vettel though. Mighty again. Still, he'll just have to put up with the race victory instead of the DOTR winner.

View Poll Results: Driver Of The Race- Japanese Grand Prix
Vettel	11	12.94%
Button	1	1.18%
Alonso	1	1.18%
di Resta	0	0%
Rosberg	0	0%
Raikkonen	0	0%
Grosjean	0	0%
Massa	18	21.18%
Ricciardo	0	0%
Webber	3	3.53%
Perez	0	0%
Glock	1	1.18%
Kobayashi	49	57.65%
Hulkenberg	0	0%
Kovalainen	0	0%
Pic	0	0%
De la Rosa	0	0%
Senna	0	0%
Petrov	0	0%
Vergne	0	0%
Schumacher	1	1.18%
Maldonado	0	0%
Karthikeyan	0	0%
Hamilton	0	0%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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