[Official] Pat Symonds joins Williams as CT

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Not really. It's grim humour the lengths people are going to elude the points I'm making.

I'm not missing the points you're making, I just don't share your opinion (true).
I'm also quite happy to accept that you have a different opinion to me (true).
I most certainly don't have the time or (more importantly) the inclination to carefully nit-pick any posts that don't wholeheartedly support my comments.

However, what I do like about this forum is being able to read everyone's opinions, wheather I support that opinion or not, that is always interesting.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I'm not missing the points you're making, I just don't share your opinion (true).
I'm also quite happy to accept that you have a different opinion to me (true).
I most certainly don't have the time or (more importantly) the inclination to carefully nit-pick any posts that don't wholeheartedly support my comments.

However, what I do like about this forum is being able to read everyone's opinions, wheather I support that opinion or not, that is always interesting.

Pretty much the way I feel about reading and posting here.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

I'm not missing the points you're making, I just don't share your opinion (true).
I'm also quite happy to accept that you have a different opinion to me (true).
I most certainly don't have the time or (more importantly) the inclination to carefully nit-pick any posts that don't wholeheartedly support my comments.

However, what I do like about this forum is being able to read everyone's opinions, wheather I support that opinion or not, that is always interesting.

Yep, go with that. I've said what I'm going to say on this- could keep debating points with Paradise for example but we'd both end up continually repeating ourselves which is boring for everyone - we have a difference of opinion, I've said my piece and don't see the point in repeating it any more.

Really do like this forum where we can disagree but be adult about it.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by henners88

Nobody really knows who plotted the Singapore scandal, with some suggesting Piquet came up with it to save his drive, or Flav doing it to satisfy a frustrated Alonso and sponsors by giving them a win. I doubt we will ever know. Piquet Jr was not banned from racing and was free to do so in other countries in a variety of series. He committed the actual act of crashing yet was let off because he turned whistle-blower. His ex TP and chief engineer both got handed life time bans that were overturned to 5 years and now both have served them. I don't see a problem with letting either back. As I said in the opening paragraph, how do you judge the severity of the cheat? Tyrell, Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Benetton, etc and countless drivers have all been found guilty of cheating and have all gone on to race in further years. The '08 scandal was extreme in the fact it hadn't happened before, or at least we think it hasn't I know. It was dealt with and Pat is coming back refreshed and hoping to gain back some face. I have no problem with that.

Piquet got immunity. That's what happens sometimes in, say, gangster cases, one of the gang, who may have committed lots of crimes himself, gets immunity for spilling the beans on the rest of the gang. There's also a difference between a young lad in a career low job security compared with seasoned, experienced executives who's talents are in demand.

We know Symonds in concert Briatore ordered Piquet to throw the result with a deliberate crash. We know that they concealed their corrupt act until Piquet blew the whistle. So we do have the salient particulars of the incident. It wasn't dealt with, Symonds got off essentially. If you actually look over the case it, the FIA failed through poor governance not because they mulled over it and went through with an appropriate sanction. The FIA made a mess of it and attempted to save face; that's not dealing with anything.

Mike Coughlan was allowed to come back in 2011 after the sports biggest scandal to date so I think we need to evaluate the outcomes as a whole. Its a mucky sport behind the scenes and with such pressure to succeed, I don't believe you will ever eradicate cheating. This doesn't make it right, but if you ousted every person who was caught stretching or breaking the rules you'd dilute the technical talent throughout the pitlane. I think a 5 year ban is enough of a deterrent and thankfully we haven't seen anything like this for the last 5 years or many years before.

I think if we commit the crime, we should do the time; irrespective of the talent. Bernie Madoff is a talented financier but we don't that guy off because he was good at what he did! From memory, Coughlan got off lightly as well through poor governance and he wasn't throwing races either. That was just industrial espionage. Remember McLaren paid that huge fine but it was later deemed much later by I think it was the French courts that the FIA had no authority to levy that fine. The FIA was then forced to come to a quiet arrangement with Mclaren. That's from memory; I'll have to look up the particulars of that case. Point being, the FIA suffers from poor governance. They attempt to impose a penalty and they fall over themselves because they haven't done their homework with their own statutes.

[henners88]

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here as we both have very different opinions on what 'time' is. I feel Symonds served his time by losing his job and not working within the sport for several years. Loss of income and a distanced place away from the technical evolution within F1 must have been tough for a highly respected engineer, at least in my opinion. I felt Coughlan took the brunt of the blame for the '07 scandal considering he was not the only person involved. The whistle in that scandal was blown by Ron Dennis after Fernando threatened to blackmail him, yet Fernando and Pedro were both also offered immunity. McLaren as a team on the other hand were the party the governing body sort to punish. It begs the question, why were Renault not fined a silly amount of money?

I agree with your opinion the FIA fail in their governance. Of the two scandals mentioned, both were handled completely differently. Both had team personnel who actively cheated behind the scenes, but one team received a huge fine and the other had individuals punished. Madness when you look at it in simple terms.

I don't think allowing Symonds bck after his ban is sending out a poor message. I think years away from the sport is enough of a deterrent for any engineer considering breaking the rules. We also need to remember that Flavio still to this day protests his innocence. Pat held his hands up and complied with the court. I got the impression back then he was deeply ashamed of himself and feel he has served whatever time he needed to nd welcome him back. I can't go any further to justify my opinion really and feel I have made my point.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Piquet got immunity. That's what happens sometimes in, say, gangster cases, one of the gang, who may have committed lots of crimes himself, gets immunity for spilling the beans on the rest of the gang. There's also a difference between a young lad in a career low job security compared with seasoned, experienced executives who's talents are in demand.

We know Symonds in concert Briatore ordered Piquet to throw the result with a deliberate crash. We know that they concealed their corrupt act until Piquet blew the whistle. So we do have the salient particulars of the incident. It wasn't dealt with, Symonds got off essentially. If you actually look over the case it, the FIA failed through poor governance not because they mulled over it and went through with an appropriate sanction. The FIA made a mess of it and attempted to save face; that's not dealing with anything.


I think if we commit the crime, we should do the time; irrespective of the talent. Bernie Madoff is a talented financier but we don't that guy off because he was good at what he did! From memory, Coughlan got off lightly as well through poor governance and he wasn't throwing races either. That was just industrial espionage. Remember McLaren paid that huge fine but it was later deemed much later by I think it was the French courts that the FIA had no authority to levy that fine. The FIA was then forced to come to a quiet arrangement with Mclaren. That's from memory; I'll have to look up the particulars of that case. Point being, the FIA suffers from poor governance. They attempt to impose a penalty and they fall over themselves because they haven't done their homework with their own statutes.

Paradise over on the Aussie touring car forum, we have bloke called Peckstar, I am not sure you are not one and the same. He won't let it go either

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by sizzle

Paradise over on the Aussie touring car forum, we have bloke called Peckstar, I am not sure you are not one and the same. He won't let it go either

All I'm doing is responding to people that are quoting and/or addressing me.

[henners88]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

All I'm doing is responding to people that are quoting and/or addressing me.

You are doing nothing wrong and are entitled to your view. Forums would be boring if we all shared the same views. You stick to your guns

[chunterer]

Can we please leave the why's and wherefore's about Sinagpore gate alone and concentre on Pat and Williams marriage???!!!!!

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Can we please leave the why's and wherefore's about Sinagpore gate alone and concentre on Pat and Williams marriage???!!!!!

Well go on. Discuss it. Noone is stopping you.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Can we please leave the why's and wherefore's about Sinagpore gate alone and concentre on Pat and Williams marriage???!!!!!

A voice of reason at last! Saying directly what has been subtly hinted at a number of times already, maybe the hints were too subtle?

[bella]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Well go on. Discuss it. Noone is stopping you.

i think at this point in the thread you're the only one discussing the singapore thing. everyone else has said that they're happy to agree to disagree.

[Bononi]

So let's stay on topic guys.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by bella

i think at this point in the thread you're the only one discussing the singapore thing. everyone else has said that they're happy to agree to disagree.

I'm interested to see how people will have a discussion on Symonds new senior appointment at Williams without discussion on his previous trackrecord and professional integrity. That would certainly be some accomplishment.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I'm interested to see how people will have a discussion on Symonds new senior appointment at Williams without discussion on his previous trackrecord and professional integrity. That would certainly be some accomplishment.

Sheesh! You're just like a dog with a bone aren't you, you just won't let go!
I'm enjoying the discussion on here, but am now getting very tired of this one very focussed concentration on one particular episode in the guys very accomplished career. (Or to use my analoy above, this Bone of Contention!)
I do accept that you have a different opinion about PS than I (and many other posters apparently) have, so please leave it alone so we can carry on discussing all other aspects of the appointment (for and against) instead of going around in circles.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Sheesh! You're just like a dog with a bone aren't you, you just won't let go!
I'm enjoying the discussion on here, but am now getting very tired of this one very focussed concentration on one particular episode in the guys very accomplished career. (Or to use my analoy above, this Bone of Contention!)
I do accept that you have a different opinion about PS than I (and many other posters apparently) have, so please leave it alone so we can carry on discussing all other aspects of the appointment (for and against) instead of going around in circles.

Am I standing in your way of you pressing the "submit reply" button and preventing you from starting a discussion on another dimension of this question? No, sir, I am not.

You need to direct your objections to the other posters. I'm just responding to people who are addressing and quoting me over this issue; they are drawing it out, which is fine by me. I don't see an issue with the discussion really. It's on-topic and salient and other posters have full license to bring other aspects of this question to the table.

[Greem]

Button knowingly drove a car with a cheating fuel system, got caught, team was punished, he now races and is held up as a fairly model driver.

Alonso benefitted from Crashgate, knew about it later (that's not arguable) yet still says he deserved the win. He also allegedly threatened to blackmail his own team when at McLaren, and deliberately screwed his team-mate in a qualifying session. He's now also held up as someone who can scrag a dog of a car much further than it should be able to go, and is massively well respected by fans of all types.

Schumacher had his "Monaco Moment" but is still held up as one of the greatest drivers ever seen, even with all the rumours that hang over his head about tyres, regulation manipulation & favouritism from the FIA to Ferrari.

At McLaren, Ron Dennis dobbed his team in to the FIA when threatened with blackmail (allegedly) by one of his own drivers (see above!), got a ludicrous punishment from the FIA, yet McLaren remain one of the most well-respected organisations in the pit lane.

I could go on, but I won't. Practically every team in the F1 circus has a history, a past, and some parts of them can be viewed as being rather unsavoury - but we don't bang on about them at every turn.

Oh, and can we stop calling Crashgate a crime, please? Cheating yes, lying yes, but not criminal.

I think it will be an interesting time for Williams. Symonds has a lot on his hands, and if anyone can make it work, he can - his technical reputation is unsullied. His personal/professional integrity may well have been damaged by that one incident, but how better to repair it than being back inside F1 and given that opportunity?

Finally, hands up anyone here who's never made a mistake; never told an untruth; never tried to cover up something.

(my hands are firmly down)

[PepsiVodka]

The Willams has been dog slow this year. Anything would be a improvement but Bottas is better than Maldonado.... In Quailfying but in the race the experience of Maldonado is making him the fastest and there for the most likely to score points for this wreck of a car.

Also, who really cares about Crashgate and Singapore 2008. It's not like Willams is going to look back at his track record and see that he was around for those 'disasters' called races and say sorry you can't have the job because even though you would make the car better you might not be legit.

[Peter Mallett]

Got a point today, I believe.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Got a point today, I believe.

Only because Nico's Merc expired though!

[Bononi]

Williams needs to improve quickly, they're looking like a small team.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Dave M

Perhaps I meant to say just 'other', not necessarily 'young'.
There certainly are plenty of others who are just as capable but have been passed over for whatever reason. Those making the judgements of who to promote are certainly not infallible either.
There may be a difference between employing someone with a history of 'lack of success' & someone with a history of 'failure'. It's difficult to judge. How many chances should somebody have? F1 is not always fair or logical. The requirement for 'instant success' often clouds or distorts peoples' judgements.

Success even, how many massively talented people have Williams "let go"?

[GTRMagic]

Ross Brawn To Buy Into WilliamsF1??



Presumably that's Mr Woolf's exit strategy for Mr Brawn, and for his stake in WilliamsF1?

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Ross Brawn To Buy Into WilliamsF1??



Presumably that's Mr Woolf's exit strategy for Mr Brawn, and for his stake in WilliamsF1?

I read something similar yesterday (in Autosport I think?) and all of the arguements put forward in its favour seemed logical to me.
I hope it does happen, and I hope it enables Williams to move back towards the front of the grid, they've been missing from there for way too long in my opinion.

[Bononi]

It's a possibility, but still a far shot.