Maldonado 'I'd rather stay at home...'

[Aysedasi]

Well in that case, as the experienced driver of the pairing, that shouldn't really be happening, surely?

[ensign14]

I had hoped Maldonado would have developed some brains by now, but alas not. So he goes into the category with Montoya and Sato, genius fast at times but unable to cope with it. Unless he's going to do better than Tuero et al who left F1 in a fit of apathy and couldn't get back to it.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Funny. Unless PDVSA breaks his deal with Williams, I'm afraid Maldonado will stay put.

I think that PDVSA and Maldonado have already told Williams that they will not be there next season; and that is what Claire Williams' South American holiday was about!

Jiiiiim and Moneyseeker's posts above would seem to add fuel to this fire!

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by ensign14

I had hoped Maldonado would have developed some brains by now, but alas not. So he goes into the category with Montoya and Sato, genius fast at times but unable to cope with it. Unless he's going to do better than Tuero et al who left F1 in a fit of apathy and couldn't get back to it.

Whaaaat?!

I've got to respond to that!!!!

Montoya was/is lightyears ahead of Pastor in ability and intelligence,, let alone Sato!

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Montoya was/is lightyears ahead of Pastor in ability and intelligence,, let alone Sato!

He may well be, but then again had Sato been in a McLaren I doubt he would have gone off quadbiking and broken his shoulder, or burgered himself out of the seat.

[Paradise City]

I think Maldonado has a raw talent but given that with his enormous support he holds the leverage in any relationship with his teams during and before F1 he's gotten very cocky and there's noone there with sufficient authority to curb that and refine his racecraft. Grosjean, in his place, got threatened with the sack and has always faced the possibility of getting fired, so he always has to shape up.

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I think Maldonado has a raw talent but given that with his enormous support he holds the leverage in any relationship with his teams during and before F1 he's gotten very cocky and there's noone there with sufficient authority to curb that and refine his racecraft. Grosjean, in his place, got threatened with the sack and has always faced the possibility of getting fired, so he always has to shape up.

Well-funded pay drivers had been sacked before (like Petrov in Lotus-Renault), so I don't really think that pay driver status necessarily gives Maldonado the sense of invisibility. The primary issue here is that Williams is having its worst season in history. In fact, the 2011 was considered its worst season, and at that point everyone thought that things couldn't get worse than that. Well, this year the whole team has scored 1 point, and it would have been 0 according to the old points system.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Whaaaat?!

I've got to respond to that!!!!

Montoya was/is lightyears ahead of Pastor in ability and intelligence,, let alone Sato!

It's always puzzled me that Montoya achieved such a status. He was ok in Cart although I recall a massive spin at Portland when he was trying to warm the tyres up! Rookie mistake but he went on to win the championship, which I guess tells you the level of competition that season.

Then I watched him at Silverstone chasing Schumacher, where Schumacher kept his foot to the floor, Montoya was lifting. Agreed his car may not have been as good as the Ferrari, but we are talking about a so called all time great here.

Nope Montoya was pretty average and as to intelligence? He ate his way out of McLaren. Now he's been dropped from Nascar where he hasn't been very successful.

Sato was an also ran before he got the seat.

Maldonado? I said his win last year was luck based on the tyres etc. and I appear to have been proved right. He's worse than average and frankly will be no loss to Williams (other than the cash). As far as his experience is concerned he should be showing them how to develop the car, instead he's complaining.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by JacobP

Well-funded pay drivers had been sacked before (like Petrov in Lotus-Renault), so I don't really think that pay driver status necessarily gives Maldonado the sense of invisibility. The primary issue here is that Williams is having its worst season in history. In fact, the 2011 was considered its worst season, and at that point everyone thought that things couldn't get worse than that. Well, this year the whole team has scored 1 point, and it would have been 0 according to the old points system.

If he is bringing in a purported 46 million then that is a powerful amount of leverage Maldonado has over a team that has been operating at a loss and has been languishing in competitive terms. Sacking him or triggering undue acrimony runs a risk of destabilising the team further and they won't do that if they can possibly avoid it. Maldonado did win for them too, another pay driver is unlikely to come close to that achievement nor matching the funds Maldonado was able to offer. Well, unless van der Garde's father in law delivers the gold, in regards to the latter.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Now he's been dropped from Nascar where he hasn't been very successful.

I believe that he'll be heading back to Indy cars, where he'll probably not be as successful as the last time he was there.

With regard to any drive at Williams, isn't it possible that no sponsor in their right mind would want to spend money on a team that has amassed the grand total of 1 point at this stage during the season?

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I believe that he'll be heading back to Indy cars, where he'll probably not be as successful as the last time he was there.

With regard to any drive at Williams, isn't it possible that no sponsor in their right mind would want to spend money on a team that has amassed the grand total of 1 point at this stage during the season?

Speaking as someone in the sponsorship business I have to say that this would be a tough presentation to give. I bet there will be more slides on past championships and race wins than there will be on the recent past.....!

And you can only trade on this for so long, sadly.

[Peter Mallett]

Don't forget though that Williams is, like McLaren, at the head of the technology field with it's facility in Qatar so from a business perspective I surmise that they are a good proposition.

[Moneyseeker]

Agreed that Williams has a wide business base outside of F1 with it's hybrid power business, etc. If this would lead to companies putting big sums into their F1 program I'm not sure. B2B deals are great but tend not to involve much real cash.

If they do lose Maldonado's cash it will be a big hole to fill when they don't have the benefit of great recent results to lure another big paying sponsor.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

It's always puzzled me that Montoya achieved such a status. He was ok in Cart although I recall a massive spin at Portland when he was trying to warm the tyres up! Rookie mistake but he went on to win the championship, which I guess tells you the level of competition that season.

Then I watched him at Silverstone chasing Schumacher, where Schumacher kept his foot to the floor, Montoya was lifting. Agreed his car may not have been as good as the Ferrari, but we are talking about a so called all time great here.

Nope Montoya was pretty average and as to intelligence? He ate his way out of McLaren. Now he's been dropped from Nascar where he hasn't been very successful.

I totally agree. I never saw Montoya in the same light as some others...... Although I do agree that Maldonado doesn't even get close.

[Marbot]

Some sponsors would want to see their sponsored driver actually doing well in F1. I can't imagine, for example, that Maldonado's sponsors are happy to see where the williams car is relative to other teams, even though the technical/business side of Williams is moving along nicely. I rather doubt that going from a team which actually won one race last season, to a team that has just won the one point this season, is sitting well with Maldonado's sponsor.

[BSchneiderFan]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

It's always puzzled me that Montoya achieved such a status. He was ok in Cart although I recall a massive spin at Portland when he was trying to warm the tyres up! Rookie mistake but he went on to win the championship, which I guess tells you the level of competition that season.

Yes, he beat no-hopers like Dario Franchitti, Paul Tracy, Michael Andretti, Jimmy Vasser, Gil de Ferran, Greg Moore... Really thin field that year.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Yes, he beat no-hopers like Dario Franchitti, Paul Tracy, Michael Andretti, Jimmy Vasser, Gil de Ferran, Greg Moore... Really thin field that year.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment
Seeing as those guys competed in the same series (or two series, post-split/pre-union) and really only against each other all those years then it'd be hard to say whether they're all good, all bad or all average?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

Playing devil's advocate for a moment
Seeing as those guys competed in the same series (or two series, post-split/pre-union) and really only against each other all those years then it'd be hard to say whether they're all good, all bad or all average?

Oh dear there's much flame bait in some of these posts!!

You could play devil's advocate in following a few posters arguments that Montoya was 'average' only if you had clear evidence that any of those drivers than Schneider fan lists as his opposition were crap (as Peter seemed to infer earlier)

Most of those guys prior careers tend to suggest that whatever they did or did not do in CART, they were F1 calibre drivers.

I think everyone knows that De Ferran was world class and the only thing stopping him from F1 was money. Moore was a meteoric talent, as had Tracy been a generation before, and people like Dario were at that time considered to be fairly hot property. This is forgetting the likes of Helio Castroneves, and a few ex F1 drivers who weren't exactly rubbish before their F1 careers ended.

I don't want to keep this thread off topic, but really, why on earth is Maldonado being compared with Montoya, who won 6 GP's (and would've won double that) and very nearly won the WDC in a really tough season??!!!!

The only thing that related them is that JPM in Pastor's hero, according to knowlesy!

[Peter Mallett]

Chunty. The problem with your post is that you use statistics. Stats can do a lot but ultimately they tell you nothing about talent unless you actually see it. I did. Montoya was pretty average and Maldonado is worse.

De Ferran? You are having a laugh aren't you?

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Oh dear there's much flame bait in some of these posts!!

You could play devil's advocate in following a few posters arguments that Montoya was 'average' only if you had clear evidence that any of those drivers than Schneider fan lists as his opposition were crap (as Peter seemed to infer earlier)

Most of those guys prior careers tend to suggest that whatever they did or did not do in CART, they were F1 calibre drivers.

I think everyone knows that De Ferran was world class and the only thing stopping him from F1 was money. Moore was a meteoric talent, as had Tracy been a generation before, and people like Dario were at that time considered to be fairly hot property. This is forgetting the likes of Helio Castroneves, and a few ex F1 drivers who weren't exactly rubbish before their F1 careers ended.

I don't want to keep this thread off topic, but really, why on earth is Maldonado being compared with Montoya, who won 6 GP's (and would've won double that) and very nearly won the WDC in a really tough season??!!!!

The only thing that related them is that JPM in Pastor's hero, according to knowlesy!

Boy did you misunderstand my post.
The reason I said about 'playing devil's advocate' is because I happen to rate the drivers BSchneiderFan listed highly (Tracy and Andretti higher than the rest). I wish Tracy had got a proper chance, but that's one of those things in sporting life.
However, you have to admit that when a smallish group of drivers competes mainly in their same group year after year it becomes hard to tell just how good they actually are compared to those competing regularly outside that group?

Another you mention, Helio Castro Neves, I would love to have seen him make the move to F1, he's as naturally talented a driver as I've seen in years in North American open wheels.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Yes, he beat no-hopers like Dario Franchitti, Paul Tracy, Michael Andretti, Jimmy Vasser, Gil de Ferran, Greg Moore... Really thin field that year.

Having watched both CART and F1 avidly you are talking about top drawer drivers there and Montoya beat them. Montoya was an exceptional talent then.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Chunty. The problem with your post is that you use statistics. Stats can do a lot but ultimately they tell you nothing about talent unless you actually see it. I did. Montoya was pretty average and Maldonado is worse.

De Ferran? You are having a laugh aren't you?

I completely agree with you, you have to witness ability, and 'feel' it and in my view you need to witness it in less than perfect cars.

I did see it his talent several times trackside but also an awful lot on television. His commitment into and around Copse and other 'full on' corners was staggering. He also possessed some of the greatest armoury of overtaking tricks I have seen in my time watching F1. A time that includes Gilles, Senna, Mansell and latterly Hamilton, Alonso and Raikkonen, all masters of the skill of overtaking. I won't bother to list some of his moves, but suffice to say he was the only one pulling anything audacious off in the time he was in F1 that I can recall. Sometimes they ended up in a right 'clanger', but more often than not left you thinking, 'Jeez, that was a helluva move'

The problem seemed to me nothing to do with any lack of talent, but more to do with attitude and application which ultimately led to his downfall. Well that, and a self taught course in how not to get on with your employers!

Sadly most people just view his final half season as the real level of his ability which is wrong. He was one of the top 3 or 4 guys during his time in it without question. The McLaren period was an unmitigated disaster though, but for me he's proved his worth in the Williams 4 years and in his previous campaigns in CART and F3000.

[JeremySmith]

+1 Montoya had bags of talent that's for sure..

[Hawkwood]

Investigations into scams/fraud at Venezuelan motorsports federation.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/1...0I800E20131018

Could leave Maldonado, amongst others, high and dry for next year.

[Moneyseeker]

Meanwhile back to text....

http://joesaward.wordpress.com/

Joe Saward reports that CW and the Williams CEO have been over in Venezuela discussing the PDVSA sponsorship, it seems that this is negotiating around the compensation Williams receive should Maldonado want to take his PDSVA cash elsewhere as the deal is currently in year 3 of a 5 year agreement.

He still seems to think that Massa is suitable replacement and I am still thinking that this will involve Ross Brawn who will buy Wolff's stake in Williams.

Others are thinking that Brawn will move to McLaren because of his relationship with Honda, but Ross has made it clear that he needs to know who is in charge within a team situation and there are probably too many management roles at McLaren already for him to fit in.

I think RB has quite an emotional attachment from his time at Willliams and the challenge of returning them to competitiveness may be a nice circular end to his career. I also think that he will could get free reign at Williams to do whatever it takes to rebuild the team and make the technical team work in the right direction, which is right up his street.