[Team] Honda in F1

[Casper]

^ wot he said. Since when is a customer not entitled to express dissatisfaction when they don't get value for their money.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Sadly... I personally think that real understanding of things like this is generally outside of the realm of the vast majority of fans.

Not that they can't understand, but that the topic is complex and generally they don't have the technical skills or time to extract and analyse the information themselves. For most of us, the primary method is to rely upon someone else to do that analysis for us and provide some type of aggregated and (hopefully) informed opinion.

while i dont think you are wrong in this, im also not sure that overtly technical answers yield any better explanations then the more easily observable metrics....just longer ones really.

anyways, 3 Honda powered cars in the points and 1 just outside and only 1 Renault powered car despite their upgrade.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

while i dont think you are wrong in this, im also not sure that overtly technical answers yield any better explanations then the more easily observable metrics....just longer ones really.

anyways, 3 Honda powered cars in the points and 1 just outside and only 1 Renault powered car despite their upgrade.

I think the real problem is that while we are not yet at power unit parity, it is much closer than people suspect. So its hard to extract and measure the difference on something that is both part of a larger puzzle and likely to have smallish measurable differences. That seems like a bold statement given the real dominance of the Mercedes power unit, but these days I attribute the Mercedes dominance to factors beyond than that of "just" their power unit (which is still the best). Mercedes has taken strength to build more strength and has moved on to crush opposition on all fronts.

Richard

[Richard C]

Congratulations to Honda for their first win in F1 since 2006. I suspect many felt it would not happen given the disastrous return with McLaren, but lots of hard work and commitment to success has paid off.

Richard

[Tourer]

It's good see isn't it?

The other big thing that has happened since the disastrous return with McLaren has been the change of key personnel at Honda to bring back people from the glory days of the racing program - people who understand racing and what is needed.

To me, that is the key change that Honda made 18 odd months ago and the results are starting to become evident now. They're not all the way there yet but they are definitely on an upward curve.

[Adam43]

Good to see Honda win and also the improved form at McLaren. Shame it wasn’t together, but hey ho.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Good to see Honda win and also the improved form at McLaren. Shame it wasn’t together, but hey ho.

It took a structural change at McLaren to get here too, with some help from the WEC Guru....

[greentrumpet]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Good to see Honda win and also the improved form at McLaren. Shame it wasn’t together, but hey ho.

Totally agree, but feel this could never happen once they took Alonso back.

[chillibowl]

Congrats to Honda but this is Max's win...amazing what a hungry driver can do!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Congrats to Honda but this is Max's win...amazing what a hungry driver can do!

Not taking anything away from Max, but... seriously? Clearly the other drivers are just not trying hard enough!

This win is down to... Max, Red Bull Racing and Honda F1. Take any away from that list and it wouldn't have happened.

Richard

[chillibowl]

its sports...one person is always trying harder, wants it more. thats not the same as saying the others were not trying, it just means that effort/desire is not equal.

and in this case you take that driver out of that combination and the car-engine finishes a lap down.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

its sports...one person is always trying harder, wants it more. thats not the same as saying the others were not trying, it just means that effort/desire is not equal.

Wow! You would make a great motivational speaker for the team members. That would be quite the victory speech for back at HQ. I would agree it's not equal. Given the balance of staff at RBR and Honda working on this... Who has put forth more blood sweat and tears? Max or the entire bulk of the rest of the combined organization? I am utterly gobsmacked by your line of thinking.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

and in this case you take that driver out of that combination and the car-engine finishes a lap down.

That applies to anything. For example, take that chassis, engine and driver and drop them into a substandard team... he could finish a lap down. Rinse and repeat with other components. I will say that Honda has been the weak link (and maybe a bit the Red Bull chassis) so far, but they have won a race. It wasn't a rain race, the top drivers/teams didn't retire, etc. It was a legitimate win and that was significant.

If Max is really the key here, why hasn't he won every race so far? Was he just not hungry enough earlier this year?

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Wow! You would make a great motivational speaker for the team members. That would be quite the victory speech for back at HQ. I would agree it's not equal. Given the balance of staff at RBR and Honda working on this... Who has put forth more blood sweat and tears? Max or the entire bulk of the rest of the combined organization? I am utterly gobsmacked by your line of thinking.

well im not approaching this as a zero sum game. fair enough if you think i have a bias towards drivers (i do) rather than the people working back at the factory but just because i think the driver deserves more of the credit that doesn't diminish what i think anyone else did. i can celebrate someone without the need to put the other side of the equation down.

after all these years i would hope that has shown through on my posts...maybe not though.

anyways, my early point was more about how unusual it is to see what everyone essentially considers an inferior car and engine win a race, both RB and Honda have said its too early in their partnership to be looking at wins and certainly not wins based on merit, the anti stall kicking in, the issue with tires during the first stint but still ran longer to give him more fresh laps on the hards, issue with the energy recovery unit/clipping, thought he was losing power, sensor issue, when he kept the Racing Point ahead of him in order to hit the DRS activation which he then used after quickly passing the RP to get closer to Bottas(? i think it was)....is the point i am making really that unusual?

so yeah i really do think he ran a brilliant race and showed a level of motivation, desire, effort (or whatever that intangible quality is that great performances exhibit) that we dont see very often. a driver performance worthy of serious recognition and i think by years end this will be considered the drive of the season.

imo Max drove well around the limitations of his ride.

agree to disagree but for me i think Max deserves the lions share of the credit for this win...thats not a slight on Honda but rather just appreciation on my part of a very special athletic performance.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

well im not approaching this as a zero sum game. fair enough if you think i have a bias towards drivers (i do) rather than the people working back at the factory but just because i think the driver deserves more of the credit that doesn't diminish what i think anyone else did.

I think it's absolutely correct to call out kudos to one or more individuals or groups. But I think it's a loosing proposition to try to rank credit in situations like this. Such as X deserves more credit than Y. Because it inherently is diminishing in nature. Especially when it should be a happy time for both X and Y.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i can celebrate someone without the need to put the other side of the equation down.

My criticism (which we probably have talked to death at this point) is I felt that is not what you did.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

after all these years i would hope that has shown through on my posts...maybe not though.

Agree. My response was because it seemed out of character. I just found it odd for you to downplay the positive Honda success story in the Honda thread. But people can post whatever they want. I am not the forum police.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

anyways, my early point was more about how unusual it is to see what everyone essentially considers an inferior car and engine win a race, both RB and Honda have said its too early in their partnership to be looking at wins and certainly not wins based on merit, the anti stall kicking in, the issue with tires during the first stint but still ran longer to give him more fresh laps on the hards, issue with the energy recovery unit/clipping, thought he was losing power, sensor issue, when he kept the Racing Point ahead of him in order to hit the DRS activation which he then used after quickly passing the RP to get closer to Bottas(? i think it was)....is the point i am making really that unusual?

It's easy to just see the driver in this equation. The focus on Sunday is on him. And I am taking absolutely NOTHING away from Max here. But beware of discounting the work by the team as a whole to get to this point. Not to mention work during the race weekend. In the end, I have no doubt Max is patting himself on the back (rightly so), but would say he couldn't have done it without the rest of the team. Note... on the podium he walked out and pointed to the Honda badge on his drivers suit first thing. He was saying "thank you". He could have left the platitudes for later once off the podium, but I assume he felt is was the right thing to do at that moment vs. trying to soak up all the glory for himself.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

agree to disagree but for me i think Max deserves the lions share of the credit for this win...thats not a slight on Honda but rather just appreciation on my part of a very special athletic performance.

We can agree to disagree. I am not sure why you feel the need apportion credit as a way to call out Max's contribution. Or maybe I just feel it's odd to do so in the Honda thread. But I am repeating myself

Max doesn't require an epic drive in a "bad" car so as to make the story great. I think the fact that he wasn't driving a Ferrari or a Mercedes makes the point you are trying to make. I think his drive can be considered great regardless of what he was driving. There is also apples to oranges in the comparison. If it was me... and you want to pump up Max via comparison to something or someone... I might note that Max destroyed his teammate in the same car. That is a more apples to apples comment.

Check out how Gasly fits in the list of winners and losers...
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...tzwPlCNy9.html

Richard

[chillibowl]

in fairness, when i look back on this thread i see many posts about whether or not Honda deserve more or less credit or more or less blame...aside from ranking things being inherent in sports i would also say ranking Honda's performance (regardless of whether its comparing them to their competitors or comparing their input relative to its partners) is inherent to this thread.

so i do not agree that suggesting one part of the equation was more important than another part of the equation (and only for the purpose of describing this one race) is out of character for this thread.

of course i could be wrong about that so perhaps these posts could be moved to another thread because i do feel like there are some other interesting questions here...

beyond the normal team vs individual sport question, are there drives you, me, anyone else thinks are wins which come down more for driver, down to the machinery, or is it always a more equal combination of all the partners.

i imagine there are a great number of examples to support all positions here and maybe some great races of the past which we can call attention to?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

in fairness, when i look back on this thread i see many posts about whether or not Honda deserve more or less credit or more or less blame...aside from ranking things being inherent in sports i would also say ranking Honda's performance (regardless of whether its comparing them to their competitors or comparing their input relative to its partners) is inherent to this thread.

I promise this is my last post on this. I am also not trying to get the last word either. Mostly as I think I am doing a poor job of making my point.

Maybe it's less about the apportioning of credit than it is your initial posts really didn't give any credit to anyone other than Max. I think your initial posts were very strong in that regard, but the later discussion was softened. I have quoted your posts I mention directly below...

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Congrats to Honda but this is Max's win...amazing what a hungry driver can do!

My point... why is this only a Max win and also not a win for Honda?

Originally Posted by chillibowl

its sports...one person is always trying harder, wants it more. thats not the same as saying the others were not trying, it just means that effort/desire is not equal.

How can you say that Max want's the win more or is trying harder than anyone else on the team?

As I say... I am done posting on this topic as I am sure I have said too much. Way more words have been typed than it deserves. I doubt me saying anything else would get my point across more or to change you mind.

Cheers.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Well maybe im not doing a good job either in explaining my point.

Again though, literally the first thing i said was congrats to Honda but that aside and why i give Max credit for the win (beyond him looking like a driver who had a firecraker lit under his butt) is more because (and i could be mistaken here) Honda didnt look to be the superior engine of the day, no major upgrades that brought them up a level, and im not even sure if this was a new engine or not.

For all intents this was the same (spec) engine they had last race with the exception that Max really seemed on it.

Anywho i think you might have been seeing much more then i had intended with what was initially meant as a fairly uncontrovertial post.

All good though.

[Aysedasi]

I think there's a tad of 'overthinking' (or certainly overexplaining) going on here. I think we all know what both of you are saying.....

[chillibowl]

Haha too many words for sure!

Good times though.

[S griffin]

It’s nice that Honda have had their first win since Hungary 2006. Of course it wasn’t quite as dramatic win as Jenson’s, but it must be a big relief to all of them. Shows they can adapt to modern F1

[Armco Bender]

Honda have been involved in F1 for 55 odd years....you would wonder why is taken them so long to get it together.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

Honda have been involved in F1 for 55 odd years....you would wonder why is taken them so long to get it together.

The current engine spec has pushed the envelope beyond prior state of the art. Honda does fine in other series in which the engine designs are more "classic". Honda also rotates their staff pretty aggressively. That can be to the benefit of the rest of Honda, but to the detriment of the F1 part of the organization. Honda also comes and goes from the sport. Combine that with the staff rotation and knowledge is lost. Lastly, from a global manufacturer perspective, Honda is a small company.

Richard

[Richard C]

Quick post to celebrate the great results for Honda in the Brazilian GP yesterday. Many things to note as being positive.



There was nearly an all Honda podium. While who knows what might have happened if Hamilton had not collided with Albon. Maybe Hamilton would have still made a clean pass later, or not. It was interesting to watch the drag race between Hamilton and Gasly on the last lap (Toro Rosso vs Mercedes as well!) Honda wasn't giving up anything to the Mercedes PU! Kudos to Honda on their power unit progress!

It is interesting that the recently technical directives from the FIA to stop any current or future attempts at playing games around fuel flow (as well as the ongoing sage around burning lubricants). After the new directives, it is interesting that Ferrari has had a bit of a qualifying slump. Coincidence or not? Who knows! Leclerc had a new power unit with just two races to run, so no doubt they have it turned up as far as it goes (no need to race to specific longevity goals). So his pace should have been about as good as it gets for Ferrari right now.

Given the altitude of the Brazilian race, there is also the potential that Honda's turbo configuration/size may have allowed it to perform better than Mercedes? Honda was clearly on pace the entire weekend. Putting the potential for some type of altitude advantage aside, Honda is right there in the mix now with Ferrari and Mercedes. If there are differences in the top teams I think we are now starting to see situations in which no single team dominates in all scenarios. Now we are seeing teams close enough that small differences allow one or another to get an advantage on a track by track basis.

Lastly the win was on the 113th anniversary of the birth of Honda founder and namesake Soichiro Honda.

Richard

[chillibowl]

for sure congrats to Honda and cool anniversary as well!

you certainly have been keeping the faith Richard!

earlier in the summer i was far more impressed with Max's efforts then the teams, and while fortune played its hand in Brazil (as it can in sports), to see 3 Honda powered cars up there must surely be seen as a testament to the work they have been putting in. im excited for the future!

[S griffin]

Honda are certainly on an up, with a great car and two top drivers in their car. They could challenge for the title next season