|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
19 Sep 2021, 14:14 (Ref:4074658) | #76 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,168
|
As a compromise then they could think of some way of combining a ICE engine and a battery powered EV to give around 1000hp and improved efficiency.
|
||
__________________
Brum brum |
19 Sep 2021, 15:51 (Ref:4074677) | #77 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,168
|
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
20 Sep 2021, 00:12 (Ref:4074732) | #78 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,215
|
||
|
7 Oct 2021, 19:12 (Ref:4077392) | #79 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,168
|
Misc rumors about the direction of the future power units are floating about. As I mentioned in the Honda thread, apparently everyone now is talking 2026 and not 2025. I didn't really understand this. I have tried to dig. It seems initially the discussion was 2025 or 2026 with the year somewhat not fully defined. Then everyone was saying 2025. Within the past month or so, now everyone is saying 2026.
Broadly it seems we are gravitating to... * No MGU-H * Much larger MHU-K * Larger battery pack * Synthetic fuels * Potential for adjustments (or removal) of fuel flow limits I found this interesting article... https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/09...-f1-pu-future/ It basically is saying why Mercedes holds the cards and what Mercedes is asking for in return if they agree. Interesting quote from the article... Quote:
There is some other interesting items in that article. Including that Mercedes wants any new supplier (including Red Bull) to pay some type of fee to become a power unit supplier. Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
9 Oct 2021, 02:02 (Ref:4077555) | #80 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,215
|
The longer F1 put off changing the greater the pressure will be to abandon ICE altogether. By 2026 all European manufacturers will have dropped development of ICE's as they will only be a few years out from having to stop retail sales in Europe. Asian manufacturers are not showing the same headlong rush because their primary markets are not in Europe. There is no way on God's earth that ICE will stop altogether as the less populated areas of the worlds simply can't support BEV so hybrid is most probably going to predominate in those areas. It seems to me that F1 is between a rock and that well known hard place in choosing what to do.
|
|
|
16 Aug 2022, 21:38 (Ref:4122988) | #81 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,168
|
Agreement has been reached on the 2026+ Power Unit Regulations.
Short version... * Sustainable fuel (not fossil based carbon) * V6 1.6L Turbo ICE * Reduced fuel flow rate with power target of 400kW * Bottom end of ICE much more controlled (more prescribed) * Top end (combustion) will be where more creativity is allowed. * Overall ICE is more prescribed * MGU-H removed * More standardization of various components * ERS to increase in power to 350kW * Power cells an area for creativity * More prescriptive regulations (spec if you want to call it) are to prevent good/bad solutions being "locked in" for power unit providers. * Restrictions on power unit bench test setups (i.e. dynos) * Financial regulations have hit power unit development. Previously this was unregulated. There are now cost caps for development. The goal is to ensure overall balance of performance (my words not their words) and to ensure long term stability of the series. https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...ions/10353602/ Richard |
|
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
16 Aug 2022, 21:43 (Ref:4122989) | #82 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,168
|
Documents that cover financial, technical and sporting if anyone is interested in reading...
FORMULA 1 POWER UNIT FINANCIAL REGULATIONS https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...2022-08-16.pdf 2026 FORMULA 1 POWER UNIT TECHNICAL REGULATIONS https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...2022-08-16.pdf 2026 FORMULA 1 POWER UNIT SPORTING REGULATIONS https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...2022-08-16.pdf Richard |
|
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
17 Aug 2022, 00:51 (Ref:4122994) | #83 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,168
|
(Mods, feel free to adjust thread title from 2025+ to 2026+)
Richard |
|
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
17 Aug 2022, 02:31 (Ref:4122997) | #84 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,857
|
How super exciting...... Honestly, i cant help but feel these last 12 years life has gone downhill markedly. The last 3 years its accelerated. Terrified as to where the world is going to end up. It seems like every piece of joy is being ripped from me in the name of "going green" or "build back better". Maybe im the only one that feels that way since its showing no sign of slowing down.
|
||
|
17 Aug 2022, 08:18 (Ref:4123007) | #85 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,761
|
The hybrid era has not lived up to it's promise. These new engine rules need to work and strike the right balance between keeping the fans excited and being sustainable
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
17 Aug 2022, 09:21 (Ref:4123017) | #86 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,717
|
F1 also need to make a bigger song and dance about how damned efficient the engines are too. It's a brilliant way of fanfaring the engineering prowess that exists within motorsport.
|
||
__________________
Incognito: An Italian phrase meaning Nice Gearchange! |
18 Aug 2022, 05:30 (Ref:4123069) | #87 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,017
|
Quote:
The Mini Cooper SE is considered quite a good electric hot hatch, it achieves a light 1363kg kerb weight, only 100kg more than the ICE Cooper S by having a very small battery and a range of 90-110 miles. The handling and performance of the electric Cooper S is said to be very comparable to the combustion powered Cooper S. |
||
|
18 Aug 2022, 05:35 (Ref:4123070) | #88 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,017
|
Quote:
Presumably the 2026 F1 cars will have much, much larger batteries. They will essentially be a 350 kW Formula E powertrain supplemented by a detuned version of the old 1.6 V6 turbos. I wouldn't mind seeing a 1000kg kerb weight to accomodate the larger battery and better reflect the trends of road-going EVs which tend to be heavy vehicles if they have a large range... "Socially relevant" is the phrase the FIA are using to describe the partial electrification of F1, as opposed to socially irrelevant internal combustion engines! |
||
|
18 Aug 2022, 05:39 (Ref:4123071) | #89 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,431
|
Quote:
|
||
|
18 Aug 2022, 05:50 (Ref:4123072) | #90 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,017
|
||
|
18 Aug 2022, 05:55 (Ref:4123074) | #91 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 6,515
|
|||
|
18 Aug 2022, 06:23 (Ref:4123076) | #92 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,431
|
||
|
18 Aug 2022, 06:29 (Ref:4123077) | #93 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,560
|
|||
__________________
"When you’re just too socially awkward for real life, Ten-Tenths welcomes you with open arms. Everyone has me figured out, which makes it super easy for me." |
18 Aug 2022, 12:24 (Ref:4123092) | #94 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 12,173
|
||
|
18 Aug 2022, 13:33 (Ref:4123096) | #95 | |
Veteran
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,215
|
That is the upper limit which seems to be impossible to achieve due to short regeneration times caused by short throttle off periods in F1. The braking zones are very short in time and to regenerate and top up the electrical system if the full 350kw is utilised seems to be unlikely. If the full 350kw is not topped up then it would seem we are in for a strategic economy run instead of a foot to the floor race but that happens now anyway. The other contributing factor is no regeneration from the front axle which seems a bit odd. It is likely that ERS development is going to be a priority over ICE development.
|
|
|
18 Aug 2022, 14:01 (Ref:4123100) | #96 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,168
|
It might be a short time, but here is still a lot of energy required. Braking from 200 to 100 mph in 5s or 2s requires similar energy. Is there an upper limit to the power can be (re-)generated by the motor? Adding to the front axle could have helped that.
|
||
__________________
Brum brum |
18 Aug 2022, 14:29 (Ref:4123101) | #97 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 12,173
|
Exactly that, it's not the time that's critical, it's the energy potential and the braking in an F1 car is extreme to say the least
|
|
|
18 Aug 2022, 16:41 (Ref:4123105) | #98 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 6,168
|
Quote:
Overall, it sounds like the ICE part of the overall solution is going to be very prescriptive and not an area for much creativity. The creativity is going to be around the electrical system in general (even if some of that might be spec parts). Efficiency and intelligence in the regeneration, storage and application of the MGU-K will be a focus. One example is to NOT be burning extra fuel just for purposes of charging batteries (or only do when necessary). Another is to use MGU-K to help address turbo lag (previously handled by MGU-H). Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
18 Aug 2022, 17:29 (Ref:4123113) | #99 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,987
|
not nearly as technically minded as you guys but as times move on and different challenges emerge in the wider world, must say i find myself far less interested in the energy recovery systems and far more interested in the biofuels F1 will be using.
how long will it take them to get to 100% biofuels, how much closer are their partners in developing a truly synthesised but sustainable fuel, can they drive road car requirements away from biofuels which still mainly rely on food stock us etc etc? within the framework of the budget cap, can the sport balance the need to curb spending with being relevant in an area that needs more attention and funding? already the cooling effects of the synthetics fuels have already changed the design philosophy...size zero side pods which, for example, begs the question of what an F1 car is supposed to look like? can the relationship between biofuel and design aesthetic create a pathway back to smaller lighter cars? does a cooling effect on the engines allow the engines to deal with the excess heat from combustion differently (not sure how else to phrase that) and could we see even more thermally efficient engines as a result? no doubt i find this stuff interesting/have more questions about it is because i do lack the required technical understanding but its also because ts new(ish)? mgu-k feels a little old bag at this point? |
||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
18 Aug 2022, 20:00 (Ref:4123134) | #100 | ||
14th
1% Club
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 44,168
|
I liked the mgu-h. Seemed a neat solution, but obviously expensive.
A proper well done biofuel fuel - love it for net CO2, but not good for reduction of local emissions. Last edited by Adam43; 19 Aug 2022 at 00:00. Reason: Wheel to well |
||
__________________
Brum brum |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Current F1 Power Supply Units | Mike Harte | Formula One | 467 | 2 Aug 2016 16:58 |
2014 Power Units | Mike Harte | Formula One | 1 | 21 May 2014 19:20 |
Rescue units | staid davenport | Marshals Forum | 11 | 14 Jan 2007 12:43 |
Radar units | Pug620 | Road Car Forum | 7 | 28 Oct 2004 15:36 |
Research into trackside rescue units | SJ Spode | Marshals Forum | 14 | 7 Feb 2002 09:19 |