The Ferrari hearing outcome! - Page 4

Don K · 26 Jun 2002, 18:24 (Ref:322355)

Quote:

Originally posted by Stranger
Here is the official FIA press release:

http://www.fia.com/PRESSE/F1-A/2002/26-06-2002.pdf

Strange!

It looks to me as if they are saying:
"It is OK to give team orders."
"It is OK to follow team orders."
"If you follow team orders, you are obliged to do it secretly."

Don K · 26 Jun 2002, 18:33 (Ref:322358)

Quote:

Originally posted by Super Tourer
If their isn't a rule on blatant race-fixing, their ought to be. In anyother sport the culprit's would face a ban of some sort. Indeed the late Hanse Cronje (spelling!) got a lifetime ban from Int cricket for taking bribes to fix matches.

Even worse:
In Belgium, a number of well-known football players got a 2(?) year ban (about 20-25 years ago), because the president of their club "bribed" players from another team into playing as good as they can.

Speedworx · 26 Jun 2002, 18:38 (Ref:322360)

Basically, the FIA has said team order are ok and if you mess up the podium you get a stupid small fine.

Come on FIA, give a proper penalty, like a ban!

NiceGuyEddie · 26 Jun 2002, 19:03 (Ref:322376)

Quote:

Originally posted by freud
Yes, its a slap on the wrist... and that's what I feared. Nothing unusual guys, after Jerez 1997, MS walked away with a slap on the wrist.. once again there is a slap on the wrist. I wonder when is the 'next' slap on the wrist ??

You guys seem te be forgetting over and over again that the FIA didn't have any grounds to pose anything more than a fine on Ferrari. The fact is that the teamorder as was issued and carried out is not illegal and therefor can not be punished. It is as simple as it is logical.

The crowd reaction is not relevant where re-inforcing the rules is concerned. If the rules don't provide the FIA with any ground to impose a ban, than a crowd reaction cannot do anything to change that. The only thing the FIA can do to awknowledge the crowd reactions, is to alter the regulation. But the altered rules can -off course- only be used in future situations.

The podiumantics simpy do not justify any sort of ban. Even the fine itself is imho a bit harsh (EERO, really, where do you come off saying it's peanuts for Ferrari? Believe me, they'd rather keep for theirselves).

So quit slagging of the FIA for wristslapping. Just look at the facts. The fact that you WANT Ferrari to be serverly punished, does not mean the FIA doesnt do a thorough job when the conclude a fine, and nothing more than a fine is in order.

JR27 · 26 Jun 2002, 19:59 (Ref:322422)

"Collusion between teams is strictly forbidden already - Sauber have not shown any tendency to allow red cars through more quickly than any others - and if they did, Ron Dennis, Frank Williams et al would jump on them pronto, since it is specifically and clearly banned."

Really????......that would make Frank (& Patrick) and Ron hypocrites...in that there was the little matter of "the agreement" between Williams & McLaren at Jerez in 1997. This has been discussed before on other threads so there is no reason to go through it all over again...and yet many on this board (exception is EERO ) have either no recollection of the incident or have conveniently forgotten it.....yikes, it's that darn old "selective memory".....hmmmm....since EERO and I remember....does this jepordize our standing as "a real fan" ????

love and kisses

Murph

BBKing · 26 Jun 2002, 20:10 (Ref:322427)

Not so good memory JR27. In the same race Fontana was driving the Sauber that held back Villeneuve. At some point in the race Jean Toad was seen walking back from the Sauber garage and the incident was known as "tell Fontana to hold Villeneuve or you don't have an engine next season"

Not long ago, in an incident that many here still remember, Kimi Raikonen was given the order to let Schumacher by in Austria 2001. I know some here are going to ask me for quotes and links. Do your homework guys....LOL

As I said before. After Jeres 97 do not expect FIA to do anything close to punish Ferrari or Schumacher. Enjoy your summer. FIA supports the fraud why should I waste my time on it?

freud · 26 Jun 2002, 20:18 (Ref:322434)

Quote:

Originally posted by NiceGuyEddie

You guys seem te be forgetting over and over again that the FIA didn't have any grounds to pose anything more than a fine on Ferrari. The fact is that the teamorder as was issued and carried out is not illegal and therefor can not be punished. It is as simple as it is logical.

The crowd reaction is not relevant where re-inforcing the rules is concerned. If the rules don't provide the FIA with any ground to impose a ban, than a crowd reaction cannot do anything to change that. The only thing the FIA can do to awknowledge the crowd reactions, is to alter the regulation. But the altered rules can -off course- only be used in future situations.

The podiumantics simpy do not justify any sort of ban. Even the fine itself is imho a bit harsh (EERO, really, where do you come off saying it's peanuts for Ferrari? Believe me, they'd rather keep for theirselves).

So quit slagging of the FIA for wristslapping. Just look at the facts. The fact that you WANT Ferrari to be serverly punished, does not mean the FIA doesnt do a thorough job when the conclude a fine, and nothing more than a fine is in order.

Eddie, read my earlier post. I'll quote myself again:

quoted by freud : No matter what the fans think of the moral aspect of the finishing order, legally it was correct.

Legally the hands of FIA are tied and they cant do anything against Ferrari on grounds of cheating.

THOUGH... I believe that if the FIA was really serious in handing a genuine punishment to Ferrari, then they would have imposed a race ban on basis of the podium ceremony fiasco which is a breach of FIA code of conduct .

ALSO.. I believe that after this verdict, Formula One is no longer a sport suitable for betting. I would want to see betting firms come out legally against FIA and Ferrari, if possible for the damages done.

Liz · 26 Jun 2002, 20:20 (Ref:322437)

Every day we see criminals of every description freed "on a technicality" -- legally they are exonerated and in actual point of fact they are guilty in every way. (Think O.J. Simpson).

As was stated above 'illegal' and 'wrong' are not the same thing, and the fact that you 'got away with it' does not mean that you are proven to be innocent.

I expect the booing and jeering to continue until that person has retired. And I expect that some people will continue to insist that if the rules don't say you can't shoot out the other guy's tires with a machine gun, then Ferrari is legally entitled to do just that.

If the FIA prefers the WWF-1, so be it to them. See you at Mid-Ohio.

freud · 26 Jun 2002, 20:27 (Ref:322443)

Liz, to be honest with you, technically and legally Ferrari were not 'wrong'. I believe team orders have been carried out before and will be a part and parcel of racing in future years. Williams, Mclarens, Jordan, you name it and they have all done it before. Its just the blunt, arrogant and ignorant way that Ferrari carried them out at Austria which is a big shame and makes a mockery of the sport & its integrity. But I have to say, legally, Ferrari werent wrong.

ttc · 26 Jun 2002, 22:32 (Ref:322532)

Quote:

Originally posted by freud
Liz, to be honest with you, technically and legally Ferrari were not 'wrong'. I believe team orders have been carried out before and will be a part and parcel of racing in future years. Williams, Mclarens, Jordan, you name it and they have all done it before. Its just the blunt, arrogant and ignorant way that Ferrari carried them out at Austria which is a big shame and makes a mockery of the sport & its integrity. But I have to say, legally, Ferrari werent wrong.

Actually, as long as you agree that TEAM ORDERS are part and parcel of F1 and racing in general, then you SHOULD, and I'm serious, applaud Ferrari for dishing out TEAM ORDERS in a OPEN manner.

Saying TEAM ORDERS are ok and then turn around claiming that Ferrari was "blunt, arogant and ignorant" is irony at its best.

IMNSHO, IF there is to be team order, let it be carried out clear cut and openly as Ferrari has done.

freud · 26 Jun 2002, 22:40 (Ref:322533)

I would never applaud Ferrari for the team orders given at Austria simply because there was no need of them at that particular moment of the season when Schumacher had a comfortable lead. I could understand the need of such a team order if championship is tight but to impose team order in a blatant ignorant way and snatch the win away from a deserved person is just plain 'wrong'. Legally the team orders were correct, morally they were a farce.

Wrex · 26 Jun 2002, 22:53 (Ref:322537)

I must say this. I have no issue with team orders used in F1. I wish they were'nt, but a quick 'reality-check' means they are staying.

I also have no problem with the way Ferrari did it. To me at least it was obvious, not some pathetic 'brake promblem' or bungled pit stop. It was also obvious who the real winner was.

But as Freud said, my big gripe, and the major issue, was that it really was'nt required.

Valve Bounce · 26 Jun 2002, 22:53 (Ref:322538)

The outcome was predictable,

which was what I predicted, except for the fine - I thought that MSch would only get a reprimand and not a fine. The fine was half a million in real terms by the way, not one million. At least the FIA came out with a statement clarifying the issue of team orders, which is praiseworthy. The only thing I couldn't understand was why Ferrari was dragged into this, as they had nothing to do with the podium celebration; that was totally orchestrated by MSch, which at the time he explained he considered Rubens was the real winner. I thought he did it because he was being jeered, but that is only my personal opinion. Under the circumstances, I maintain that a reprimand would have been sufficient.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

Valve Bounce · 26 Jun 2002, 23:01 (Ref:322541)

Liz, as a friend, may I offer my view that you may be over-reacting a little at this outcome? It was obvious from the outset that the FIA were not going to do anything about team orders - although they did come straight out and say it is OK. Unless the FIA were to say team orders were not OK, then the whole hearing (apart from the podium farce) was a non event. We expected that, and that's what it turned out to be. In fact, to shift the whole focus of our ire from the race to the podium farce is really reprehensible. It would have been better if the FIA just didn't have a hearing. But no matter how much we disapprove of Toad, Brawn or MSch, I don't think it is fair to compare these guys to OJ.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

DNQ · 27 Jun 2002, 01:19 (Ref:322572)

The million dollars should go to Minardi....

But seriously - this is a joke. When you're lead driver earns $100 million a year, $1m is hardly a lot, is it? Once again Ferrari are let of lightly - I think that the loss of constructors points would have been far better. What a shame.

Jukebox · 27 Jun 2002, 01:36 (Ref:322579)

Once again Liz, i'm reallly astonished by the comparison you so diligently come up with. To compare of the decision made with the O.J. Simpson's case is simply outrages.

Who got away with what? What does motorsport got to do with homicide?

There is no ruling saying what they did was wrong and what the sentence should be.

Champ69 · 27 Jun 2002, 02:36 (Ref:322598)

I have no problem with the result. The fine was for the actions on the podium not for team orders.

Just in case anyone does not understand Team orders are not ilegal, thus they can not be punished for using them.

A fair result if you ask me.

Champ69 · 27 Jun 2002, 02:43 (Ref:322600)

And just in case anyone still does not understand. The fine as for what happened on the podium.

The breach of the regulations was when MS gave Ruben's the winners trophy and put him on the top step of the podium.

I can say it again if it is still unclear.

Startline1 · 27 Jun 2002, 02:46 (Ref:322602)

OK, lets sum up some points,

What the boys in red did in the race was not against any specific FIA rules and has been with us for many years,
But, and it`s a big but, they are guilty of "Bringing the sport into disrepute" in the manner and timing of their actions,and there are rules about that which could and should have been used.

I also expected this outcome given the FIA`s past record.

One way to stop alot of this would be to downgrade or drop the teams champ.

JR27 · 27 Jun 2002, 02:57 (Ref:322607)

BB King
"Not so good memory JR27"

Gosh ya sound like Mrs. Murphy! I can assure you that my memory is pretty good for an old fart. I would sugest that you read my post one more time....the quoted statement at the top of the post comes from a gentleman who posts by the name of Glen. He is the one that mentions Sauber...not I. So you should direct your lecture on Sauber and it's kow-towing to Ferrari to him, not me..... I understand that English is not your native tongue so I guess I can understand the problem you must have had with the reading comprehension and will let that matter drop.

As far as my memories of all the happenings that went on at Jerez in 1997..from Schumacher's thuggery to the fixing of the race by McLaren International and Williams Engineering (Jock Clear on the radio to Jacques..."Jacques, let them pass...remember the agreement"...) they are still very vivid......
I guess I have this bad habit, I believe in truth (whether it benefits me..or not)......I used to teach my students this simple Taoist phrase "What is, IS" (Schumacher can never undue his actions at Jerez...Ferrari can not undue the stupidity of the last lap of the 2002 Austrian GP....McLaren & Williams can not undue their collusion at Jerez in '97, I mean talk about putting the "sport into disrepute"!!!)

As I have stated so many times in my past incarnation here at 10-10ths...I think it is hypocracy in the extreme for fans of one persuasion to heap scorn on the actions of a competitor while totaly ignoring the sins of their own favorites....I used this "quaint" Western Pennsylvania phrase in the past to describe the problem facing these hypocrites.."You can't polish a turd"....

well, I guess its time for me to return to Wuhan mountain to resume my training......hahahahaha (opps...LOL!)

love and kisses

Murph

Jukebox · 27 Jun 2002, 02:58 (Ref:322608)

Lets get one thing straight....the fine was for the handing over of the throphy by Michael to Ruben, not because of the team order.

Just imagine that you are Michael...with the crowd booing him because of the team order, and what would you do when you are up on the podium at that time?

I'd bet you'd do the same

Super Tourer · 27 Jun 2002, 07:24 (Ref:322655)

So what we are saying then is 'race-fixing' is OK, as long as its team orders?

Red · 27 Jun 2002, 07:29 (Ref:322660)

No, race fixing is "Jacques, let them pass...remember the agreement"

. (hmmmm, Brazil-Turkey 1-0 was a "fixed match"

I wonder why was Ronaldo who scored, and not Rivaldo...)

Still fail to understand why "hypocrisy" is acceptable and "open teamorders" are a crime.

Jukebox · 27 Jun 2002, 07:31 (Ref:322661)

How could you use the term 'race-fixing' when it relates to team orders?

It's all about teamwork, in order to achieve their goals. Race fixing would be like paying another team to fail.

Jukebox · 27 Jun 2002, 07:38 (Ref:322664)

Quote:

Originally posted by Red
(hmmmm, Brazil-Turkey 1-0 was a "fixed match" I wonder why was Ronaldo who scored, and not Rivaldo...)

Hey Red, you support Brazil then?

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