Renault V6 on the edge of folding (merged)

[Russfeld]

It has nothing over. For the same amount of money F3 gives you twice as many races, more technical development, and better prestige. V6 is redundant if you've done National 2 litres

[SALEEN S7R]

Nope, V6 will have more presitge soon, it will have live tv coverage and will be visitng better tracks and the cars will be a lot better in both power and grip.

Formula 3 is a good national series, but it wont ever be as good as the v6 renaults i dont think or F3000 or TWS. Still thats open for debate, I just prefer real racing cars.

[Morcilman]

saleem, I dont understand what good racing is for you, because f-reanult and F-3 is the best racing I can see. Top speed says nothing to me at all, but lap time does, and you should have a look at lap times from F-renault, F3, f-super renault and 3000, you will find that all are very far from f1, but that formula super renault will be slower than Ws 3000 and not very far from f3. The look? it doesent look very diferent from any other car arround, less agresive that WS and 3000 and not a lot nicer than F renault (wich for the cost difference it should have)

[bella]

and from his past form, saleens next post will also be saying that formula ford is boring, there's no overtaking and not one of them knows how to drive

[SALEEN S7R]

Nah, theres plenty of overtaking in formula ford, whether the drivers are good enough to make it to F1 is debtable, some are most arent. Morcilman, u say F3 isnt much slower than Renault v6, hmm not much only 25mph lol, 25mph is a lot when ur racing.

Renault v6 is supposed to be slower than TWS and F3000, its designed to be a stepping stone from F3 to F3000 thats the whole point. As for looking at F3000 times compared to F1, they arent that much slower, Ive seen this year F3000 pole times be only 6.5 secs off the back marker F1 teams. Now ok its 6 seconds which is a lot, but name another series that is capable of getting that close to F1 times, the only one I can think of is Formula Nippon because of the new lola chasis and engine, or CART.

Formula 3 and Formula Renault are ok, but put it in perspective, the cars in FIA GT were faster than them. Now ok they have more power yeah but they also weigh a whole lot more, where in comparisson the FIA GT cars arent faster than the Renault v6 cars. My point is that the v6 cars are very very fast, and that final 25mph does make the differnce, seeing as FIA GT cars do hit 180mph with ease.

[Russfeld]

SHUT UP ABOUT TOP SPEED

jesus dude, you really have to stop harping on the speed. 25mph doesnt mean dic|< at Monza where F3 was faster than Super Renault. Its all about corner speeds. Any idiot can make noise down a straight.

[Morcilman]

six seconds? where when? I am not putting you down, I dont know, but where Ive seen them it was a lot moer. It was more to the Cart at montreal...

Again, the top speed says nothing at all, you say that speed is a lot in racing, let me tell you that lap times is the only thing important, is not a game to do a car very fast on the straight (that is dragsters) is a game to do a car fast over a lap or a race distance...

F3 is specially good at that, with a small horsepower and small speed, they get laptimes that are incredible, so have a look at the lap time difference. The faster car is the car that completes a lap faster.

[bella]

it's about how well it goes round corners and stuff isn't it rather than to speed? i don't care how fast it goes past when i'm watching i like to see overtaking moves, speed round corners and that sort of thing.

saleen, for your own good, i'll repeat the thing about when in a hole, stop digging. you're arguing with the wrong people here...

[John Clucas]

You're assuming that going round corners quick is necessarily a GOOD thing. If it means that there is so much grip that the driver doesn't need skill - it's bad. It's a matter of a balancing power and grip, so that the driver's skill counts. It's already being said that F1 is too easy because of traction control etc - and certainly the car has far more effect on lap times than the driver. That is bad news from the driver perspective.
I'd certainly say that both F3 and FR had too much grip. That's good if you want to know which team is best, not if you want to know which driver is. In F1 no-one really knows how the drivers stack up against each other because the car/team counts for far more than the driver. Most might agree Schumacher is the best - but I'd bet no-one would agree who was second best. Lower formulae ought surely make the driver the most important component.

[Russfeld]

No car exists that has so much grip its easy to drive. The limit is the limit. Id argue an F3 is more difficult on the limit than a Formula Ford becaues the aerodynamic envelope has a much sharper point than the tire envelope.

[John Clucas]

I'd agree that a car that is more difficult to drive on the limit puts a premium on driver skill BUT..
The more occasions when (lack of) lateral or fore and aft grip causes the driver to use skill the better. The more grip (vis-a-vis power) you have then the fewer occasions a driver has to make a difference. The best drivers really do make a difference in the wet for that very reason. I certainly can't think of a "great" driver who wasn't outstanding in the wet.

[Russfeld]

Well I think the wet is overrated in that regard actually. The wet is as dependent on car setup as the dry, arguably more so becuase everything becomes so much more magnified. The wet puts a premium on smooth drivers and drivers who learn quickly.

[John Clucas]

Haven't you just described 2 pre-requisites for good drivers? (I'd agree set up is important, but unless it's fully wet - it often isn't - the driver has to make the best of it, the set-up will never be perfect and the driver has to adjust accordingly.)

[littleman]

If Saleen doesn't stop rabbiting on about horse power and top speed I think I'll loose the will to live!How fast does he think a Top Fuel, 3,000 bhp dragster could get round Knockhill? Not very is the answer!

[Mr Jinxx]

lol@littleman Best point yet!

[Russfeld]

I think a top fuel racer is longer than Knockill

[Mr Jinxx]

lol@Russfeld

Think about it, saleen. Why do people go on the waltzers or the corkscrew or big dippers etc etc? The thrill is not top speed, it is ALWAYS G-force. Be that acceleration or braking or cornering, it is always G-force that we crave. The Boeing 747 is pretty quick mid-Atlantic

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by Russfeld
SHUT UP ABOUT TOP SPEED

jesus dude, you really have to stop harping on the speed. 25mph doesnt mean dic|< at Monza where F3 was faster than Super Renault. Its all about corner speeds. Any idiot can make noise down a straight.

No I aint gonna shut up about top end speeds, I like the cars that have a good top end speed not some misherable 160mph top wack speed, u dont like seeing fast cars I do. We are allowed to feel differntly on the matter u know? And 25mph does mean a lot, F3 cars and Renault are out of date, the regs need changing F1 is moving further and further away now from F3 and Formula Renault in terms of power and chasis balance, I bet u that the Renault v6 cars can go around any track in the world faster than a F3 car or Formula Renault car. Once the car has been tested of course.

Any idiot can drive a car down a straight at 185mph, yeah ok so whats ur point? Thats got nothing to do with it, its better for the specators in my point of view. Instead of taking 30 seconds from the Parabloica down to the first chicane it only takes 25 secs in a V6 renault compared to the standard Formula Renault cars.

Russ if u dont like my point of view dont read what I say, its that simple.

[El_Gibleto]

I think Alain Prost probably qualifies as a great driver who wasn't outstanding in the wet, you only have to look at Monaco 84 and Donington 93 as examples where he was totally outclassed in wet conditions. Yes I know he won the Monaco race, but the race was stopped prematurely, when both Belof and Senna would have passed him within the next 5 laps.

[bella]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
Russ if u dont like my point of view dont read what I say, its that simple.

sorry, but it's difficult to when you're so far off the mark...

i think the difference being you watch, everyone else drives...

[Russfeld]

F3 is the fastest car (aerodynamically) outside of F1


im gonna defer in the future to bella's hole comment

[27tim]

I think the only time a renault v6 will hit 185mph is when its getting air freighted somewhere...

[SALEEN S7R]

Oh but bella, I may not have raced at a track but Ive been around Silverstone with my friend in a Tuscan R championship car. Thats fast enough thanks, Ive got friends on the F3000 scene and GT scene, and the F3000 mechanics I know have worked on F3 cars and Renaults before and describe them as jokes in comparisson to F3000 and TWS etc.

I dont like F3 or F Renault, I think everyone knows that lol, all im saying is I belive Renault v6 will be a sucess and that for me PERSONALLY I dont like F3 or F Renault, the cars are simply too slow for me and dont look like a racing car, Im pretty sure that the v6 renaults will produce more downforce than F3 and F Renault cars when the series gets going, and I have no doubt the corner speeds will be much faster than that seen in F3.

Still I wont say anymore on the matter now, I will simply wait until the mid point of the season, then I will have proved my point..

[Morcilman]

f3 cars out of date?... have you seen a dallara close up? or the new dome? I think very few cars are better built and more developed than the actuial f3s

[flor]

actually f3000 are a lot more out of date o_O