"Better than half the excrement they watch in Europe"

[Robert Ryan]

certainly wouldn't say the current state of touring car racing in Europe is any better than V8Supercars down here, but i fail to see how the racing in V8Supercars is any better than what is in Europe.

Suggest you live in England for a while and you might agree with my seemingly negative comments about racing in Europe.

[D.R.T.]

Have to disagree. The variety offered in Europe aswell as the racing in the BTCC, DTM, WTCC is quite good in my opinion.

[Scott Moyse]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Have to disagree. The variety offered in Europe aswell as the racing in the BTCC, DTM, WTCC is quite good in my opinion.

i agree the key word being VARIETY, i sick of having V8 supercars rammed down my throat!! The lower racing series, where up and coming young guns are forging their craft is far more interesting, because there's more of a do or die attitude and more of it should be shown on tv, which in turn would provide more sponsorship opportunies for those young drivers, and probably in return, the quality of racing in the premiere series would improve because more young REAL talent will make it through, and not those who have made it because they had a budget.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Scott Moyse

i agree the key word being VARIETY, i sick of having V8 supercars rammed down my throat!! The lower racing series, where up and coming young guns are forging their craft is far more interesting, because there's more of a do or die attitude and more of it should be shown on tv.

Interesting point there Scott.

In Australia, Channel 10 over the break introduced there exapanded V8 television details, to compliment the growth of V8 Supercar. However this expanded TV coverage in truth only amounted to 10 and Avesco taking away television from support categories for example Lotus Trophy and giving it to the already secure v8's.

Arh the Channel 10 and Avesco way.

[Robert Ryan]

In Australia, Channel 10 over the break introduced there exapanded V8 television details, to compliment the growth of V8 Supercar. However this expanded TV coverage in truth only amounted to 10 and Avesco taking away television from support categories for example Lotus Trophy and giving it to the already secure v8's.

DRT you have a real fascination with low level sportscar racing? Unfortunately Lotus Trophy does not have the interest to get a larger coverage. What is wrong with the coverage SBS gives? For the money it is great.

[peckstar]

suddenly its channel 10's responsibilty to promote motorsports, see i would have thought its the promoters responsiblity to promote motorsport, not the media.

I was looking for my local footbal game on tele and guess what, i couldnt find it, couldnt find my local cricket netball or any local sport mentioned, why should motorsport be any different.

When the top echilon of motorsport stuggles for coverage, why shoudl the lower levels get promoted

[storyline]

Probably because they actually race instead of form a procession around the track?

[Robert Ryan]

Probably because they actually race instead of form a procession around the track?

Keep unfounded opinions to yourself. Realistically a smaller catergory cannot get the sponsorship money, that a larger catergory can. that is why. If you have the ptofile you get the sponsorship AND the TV Coverage.

[storyline]

Oh dear - someone has upset Robert (yet) again. You asked the question

why shoudl the lower levels get promoted

and I answered - the fact that just about every other category around the country can actually put on a race instead of the procession that V8's continue to come up with.

SO what happens? Because Mr. Ryan doesn't agree it becomes an 'unfounded opinion' So I have to asked - how is it unfounded?

[Robert Ryan]

Storyline you have an interesting way to twist an answer:

Probably because they actually race instead of form a procession around the track?

This is your opinion
You did not answer the question:

why shoudl the lower levels get promoted

You avoided it:, your answer does not fit the question. Your answer:

Probably because they actually race instead of form a procession around the track?

What does the type of Racing have to do with lack of Promotion? Promotion depends racing quality, management of the series; relevance of the series etc. Not on perceived qualities of racing alone.

SO what happens? Because Mr. Ryan doesn't agree it becomes an 'unfounded opinion' So I have to asked - how is it unfounded

Storyline do you know the difference between a statement which is an opinion and a argument?

[storyline]

No I answered it straight forward - why should lower levels be considered over V8's? For the simple reason they RACE instead of putting on processions and end up getting penalised whenever they try and race and/or pass another car.

But never mind - no doubt you will see this your own way - again.

[Robert Ryan]

No I answered it straight forward - why should lower levels be considered over V8's? For the simple reason they RACE instead of putting on processions and end up getting penalised whenever they try and race and/or pass another car.

Storyline you just said this over again, with a few more words:

Probably because they actually race instead of form a procession around the track?

It is not going to make any more sense because you keep on repeating it.

[peckstar]

i think you mean the few guys with the serious cash or great talent (who should be racing elsewhere) race, the rest just do there best.

As opposed to v8s where the series is very equal and the best drivers in the land qualify within parts of a second of each other

lets go and look at those other classes that apparntly race

lets call it this weekends CAMS series

the APCC top 6 cars seperated by 2 seconds there are 13 cars total
maybe F3 then 13 cars seperated by 7 secs the top 6 are a second a part
saloon car championship 25 cars top 6 are a second apart field is seperated by 5 secs

compare this to the 2nd tire v8 race at adelaide 31 cars top 10 seperated by a second.

or the main game 31 cars also top 17 seperated by a second the last qualifyer was less than 3 seconds behind
.
Well there we have it lower classes vs top classes and which one has the closer racing . the top classes

So put up or shut up story line provided some eveidence of this whimsical theory of yours

[storyline]

Tell you what - have a look at the lap charts for the categories you mentioned:

Formula 3 - race 2 - http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...006.SYMM.R14.L
Race 1 - http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...2006.SYMM.R9.L (doesn't help me with POsitions 1 and 2 remanining the same throughout the race in race 1 but, funny this, there were numerous position changes throughout the rest of the field.

APCC - race 1 http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...2006.SYMM.R1.L
Race 2 http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...2006.SYMM.R7.L
Race 3 http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...006.SYMM.R12.L

Saloon cars - race 1 http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...2006.SYMM.R2.L
Race 2 http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...2006.SYMM.R8.L (awww bummer - Positions 1 and 2 again didn't change - but look! The rest of the field did - quite a few times)
Race 3 http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...006.SYMM.R13.L (probably the worst example but there were still changes taking place)

It's all very well to pick the FINAL LAP to back up your argument - but go and look at the rest of the race if you want it to be factual. Yes you can try and compare it to a category where every car is virtually controlled - and no doubt you will want to look at the lap chart from Adelaide - but keep in mind it is skewed because of pit stops - so you can't compare apples with apples this way.

The fact of the matter is that V8's no longer race each other because of the fear of what will happen to them is they happen to touch someone during a pass (after all, this IS motor racing and touches DO happen).

[peckstar]

but changes take place in v8s also

race 1 clipsal Craig lowndes passed todd kelly for the lead
race 2 Craig attempted pass for the lead
Race 2 Albert park Stephen richards passed Mark skaife for the lead.

in both races there were numerous position changes through out the field. the difference is there are 31 cars out there and most are competitive and not just making up numbers or just some guy out having fun

[Robert Ryan]

The fact of the matter is that V8's no longer race each other because of the fear of what will happen to them is they happen to touch someone during a pass (after all, this IS motor racing and touches DO happen).

Really? I noticed how immaculate the panels were after a race.

[pete55]

When those lower class cars pass they actually pass on the track.

[storyline]

peckstar - I am NOT trying to start an argument - and I acknowledge that some changes DO take place in V8's - but they certainly do NOT happen frequently with the prime reason being the one I cited before - the drivers are too afraid of the repercussions if they happen to tag someone (and I don't mean purposely). IN general the passes are made by one of the top few teams who has, for whatever reason, had either a bad qualifying run OR a DNF/crash in R1 (or an earlier race and so had to start from the rear of the field - but, then again, this is true of every category. I am, and I believe you are as well, talking about the general competiveness of the category as a whole.

Take other categories which neither of us mentioned - Formula's Ford and Vees - both are very close categories (well F/Ford has yet to prove itself again yet with the new engines) but even being so close, they actually race and change positions.

Personally I would like to see these 'you must be car length divided by door handle length plus twice the width of the drivers seat beyond the front of the rear door before you can claim a pass on a car' type rules thrown where they belong - in the rubbish bin. Let the drivers do what they are employed to do - race. If any 'accident' happen, look at them independently by some people who a) have experience in the category (IOW remove the Bond's, Wallermans etc who have never raced in these cars) and b) know what they are talking about - let them adjudicate on anything that happens. But, during EVERY race, keep them in a room that cannot see the race track, has no TV or timing feed and has no contact with anyone involved in the race on the track so that IF, and only IF any charges are brought against a driver, these people (call them Stewards) are not tainted with being involved in the original decision making process or influenced by friendships with those in race control (as those currently making the decisions are).

I would like nothing better than V8's to be a racing spectacular - but at present I am not, and neither are many people involved in the peripheries of motor sport.

[storyline]

Originally Posted by pete55

When those lower class cars pass they actually pass on the track.

Careful - you are starting to agree with me - you'll get a bad name if this keeps up

[peckstar]

but then penalties dont happen on the track, they are not immediate.

take last weekend moron no 1 tries to win the race in the first corner, in doing so he smashes an aopponent out of the race. IMO deserves a penalty because he took a car out of the race in a dodgy passing manouver. but he dosnt get one until after the race. in the mean time Moron no 1 holds up the cars behind him who should have been challenging for the lead instead they are being blocked by the moron as a result the persuer spins out in their effort to pass the moron who was latter penalised.

Passing ahppens in v8s. Rusell ingall did not go from the back of the field in race one clipsal without passing, neither did Skaife in race two or Garth at the f1.

You sound like your v8 experience is based on watching it on tv (i dont believe that is correct but thats how you are coming accross. maybe thats all its based on though, i dont know) passing happens in v8s lots of clean passing for positions throughgout the top ten or lower. but tv is about the spectatcular not the average and as a result we dont see it.

One time at winton i watched ambrose go from 8th on the track to 1st. (2003) everyone of those cars happened in the same spot on the track. i watched the tv latter and saw two of those passing manouvers.

passing does happen and as often as in lower classes. its just there are 31 cars on the track and they are all competitive

[pete55]

Originally Posted by storyline

Careful - you are starting to agree with me - you'll get a bad name if this keeps up

[storyline]

I agree that we do NOT want adjustments being made after an event - this is what the V8's are trying to prevent. There is no quick fix or one that will appease everybody unfortunately.

I know passing takes place - this is why I also mentioned that cars that DNF or have a bad qualifying session and end up down the back WILL pass other cars - but even then, look what happens (which is why I believe the reverse grid races are a potential disaster waiting to happen).

And no - my V8 experience is not based on watching it on TV - well yes it is - but the TV was located at the track in front of people like Diffey, Crompton etc - and even back 5, 6 8 years ago Diffey STILL refused to call on what was being shown on the monitor, he missed so many things that the camera caught that it wasn't funny. He still does this.

[Rombles1]

I'd be curious to know to what extent the alleged extra passing in the "lower" classes of racing is due to the more varied level of driver talent and car quality than what is evident in V8SC?

Because the V8's are all basically the same (dare I use the dreaded "p" word? Parity. There, I did it.) if you are going flat out and the guy in front of you is going flat out, you aren't going to get past him unless he puts it on the wrong bit of track. Or else on the odd occasion when there is a sub-standard driver out there, who may not actually be driving the thing flat out.

In some of the other categories, (Not FF or Carerra Cup, admittedly) cars may be totally different to other cars they are racing against. This will encourage passing by the fact that some cars will be better in different parts of the track than others. And because the cars aren't always bulletproof, sometimes you get a faster car towards the back, who therefore needs to do some passing.

Driver talent, though, would be the other big factor in the percieved passing in the other categories. Stick Jim Richards in one car, and some rookie with rich parents in another, and you will probably see some passing. I know SORFism is well and truly alive in V8SC as it surely is in other categories, but you would still have to be pretty damn good to convince daddy to buy you one of those. Those that aren't that good, daddy is more likely stick into a Saloon Car, or FF, or even Carerra Cup, or god-knows-what ever other category they end up in. Where they will race against other guys/girls who might be good enough for V8's but don't have enough $$$, or old guys with too many $$$. Lots more variation in the skill levels of the various drivers, therefore more likely to be more passing.

Does any of that actually make the racing any better? Sure, there is lots of passing, but that still doesn't seem to be enough to attract the sponsors to the other categories, to let them grow and compete with V8SC. I personally love the V8's and think they have a good formula, and just hope they don't keep stuffing it up with silly decisions. Something about Nero and Rome burning, I think.

I could be wrong about any or all of this, of course. Wouldn't be the first time

[storyline]

You are right on most counts (the one spanner to throw in the works is the family name 'Kelly' though!)

As to why they 'lower' categories getting the sponsors etc - one word - exposure. Businesses appear to equate advertising with big dollars, big cars and big names only.

yet, there are some sponsors who aren't after the national coverage they would get with V8's (at the associated astronomical price-tag) and are happy to get involved at these lower levels - because they know, in the long run, word does spread around that such-and-such is sponsoring Joe Bloggs - the word filters through the category and other categories he/she races against and you start to get loyalty this way.

How often have we seen a big sponsor come into V8's, staty for a few years and then leave? There are many sponsors who have come into club and state level who are still there many many years later - for the simple reason they believe they are getting vallue for money at that level.

[RS500]

i agree the key word being VARIETY, i sick of having V8 supercars rammed down my throat!!

this is the exact reason why i am turing away from the series.

In fact, I think it's a great shame that they're not properly represented at Le Mans, where I think they could spring a few surprises.

Woolley, the V8's aren't all that fast in 2003 JB qualified his NGT 360 GT in 1.23.7 this year skaife qualified on pole with a 1.21.9 and in 2003 pole was a 1.22.3. If they raced at Le Mans the only surprise would be for the people here in Australia when they see that a 450hp 3.6L ferrari is just as fast as a 5L 670hp SUPERCAR!

I want to know if skaife was refering to all forms GT,open wheel and LMS or just the touring cars?