Sports Sedans

[Robert Ryan]

How very right you are on the points you have made

Have you read any of the discussions on this thread?

[cavvy]

Would one of the proposed cars be capable of consistently beating the Ricciardello Alfa, if not we have not progressed, simply stood still &/or spun the wheels.

[Gherkin]

Here we go again, with umpteen dozen cars all over Australia you dont need new cars unless Robert you are thinking of donating them to the existing teams, you need the people that currently own cars to race them or sell them to some one who wants to race them

[Robert Ryan]

Well, you need new blood. As well as the old cars.

[Nivola]

well cavvy first you need a good car, secondly you need a bloddy good driver or you will not get on the bumper of the Alfa.

[Robert Ryan]

with umpteen dozen cars all over Australia

"with umpteenSic dozen uncompetitive, ancient cars all over Australia. They need to be intergrated into something new.

[Gherkin]

You must have been watching a different class, the preludes, corvettes, mustangs and Nissan were all recent cars and all costs a few bucks

[Robert Ryan]

The Honda Prelude was built in 1993 ,the Nissan same vintage from memory, the Corvette, and Mustang came from NZ, they are about 4-5 yrs old. If your definition of current is anything that is 4 to 14 yrs old, than you have a very different definition of "current" to anyone else I know.
Current means a current model type to about 2 yrs old.

[Gherkin]

so does that mean there are only about four current V8 Supercars in Australia

[Bread Roll]

well said Gherkin

The problems not the cars its getting them to the track

We dont need some one rewritting the rules yet again, in fact have no rules if it mean everyone will play

[FalconEL]

Originally Posted by Robert Ryan

"with umpteenSic dozen uncompetitive, ancient cars all over Australia. They need to be intergrated into something new.

Opinions are like ********s.

Gherkin and Peter Nightingale are spot on in their assessment. Blokes just need to get their cars out of the sheds and race them. In today's financial climate, this is not easy as in the eyes of many, motorsport in Australia consists of only one category. Therefore that's where the available Sponsorship dollars and media attention is diverted to. I struggle to get to National rounds, I did two myself last year and Shane Bradford drove my car at Phillip Island. It all comes down to money.

Clearly you have an agenda here that you are hiding behind in pretending to be a Sports Sedan fan. To sell your mates product. Hey, I have an idea. How about Grant Brennan or whoever he is, produce a product, get it out there and see how competitive he can make it. Probably not that keen on getting his backside whipped by Riccardello etc., but you've talked the talk, time to deliver.

I take offence to your generalisation of your "uncompetitive and ancient" description.

Christ, even my thing with a (1973 tecnhology) 4-speed Top Loader, non-cambered 9-inch and 550hp Cleveland can punch out pretty close to V8 Supercar lap times. I reckon there are another 30 - 40 cars around Australia that could do the same thing.

Are V8 Supercar lap times not quick enough for you????

The answer is to get them in one place at one time, and how to achieve this is the 64 million dollar question that requires ($$$$$$) answering.

[Robert Ryan]

Clearly you have an agenda here that you are hiding behind in pretending to be a Sports Sedan fan]

Before paranoia strikes..no agenda, I just want the class to last. I was around in 1964 when the likes of Barry Sharp ran his Falcon V8, hate to be around to see it disappear

To sell your mates product. Hey, I have an idea. How about Grant Brennan or whoever he is, produce a product, get it out there and see how competitive he can make it. Probably not that keen on getting his backside whipped by Riccardello etc., but you've talked the talk, time to deliver

Please I do not even know Brennan , the point is getting the class of the ground again

I take offence to your generalisation of your "uncompetitive and ancient" description.

Christ, even my thing with a (1973 tecnhology) 4-speed Top Loader, non-cambered 9-inch and 550hp

THAT IS THE PROBLEMDoes it beat Ricciardello on a regular basis? Does it have a chance? Mate it is ancient ,1973 ,was 33 yrs ago!!!
come one get real.
Look at Monarocountry's post and that is apart of the answer.

[ASSA Member]

Originally Posted by auzziemonza

Step One. Professional Category Management.
Step Two: Try and convince CAMS that the Category Manager does not need to be slogged $50K+ for a worthless agreement with the AMRC to be stuffed around by CAMS in trying to get the Championship back on track!
Step Three: Category Manager goes to AMRS (AASA)
Step Four: Progress possible.
Step Five:Phase in new regs over 3 years.

All pretty good ideas, the category has always needed help in getting it to go in the right direction.

Originally Posted by auzziemonza

New Regs.
Championship is for "Drivers" and "Manufacturers" (ie 2 Champions)
Drivers - Most points. Manufacturers - (parent body/engine) most points.
The Manufacturer Title may be a key to getting the 'other manufacturers' involved in racing again. Toyota, BMW, Nissan, MB, Mitsubishi all have suitable body shapes and available engines (multi valve/6 litre/turbo)!

Good idea in theory but getting a big time manufacturers to sponsor something so far removed from their original product will be difficult in my opinion.

Originally Posted by auzziemonza

Key new regs (to be phased in over 3 years)
- Phase out Transaxles.

Why, you'll wipe out around 85% of the existing national runners.

Originally Posted by auzziemonza

- Max 5 speed g'box directly behind engine

The second hand market for ex V8 Super car 6 speed Holingers will cease and the poor buggers who saved up to buy them will have to chuck them away!

Originally Posted by auzziemonza

- Rear of engine block no further back than forward windscreen line.

Will make 90% of the current cars ineligible and it's by no means an easy fix either.

Originally Posted by auzziemonza

- Double A arm wishbone suspension on front (no rocker arm)

Why bother? Its not like an inboard setup costs a whole heap more, plus plenty of cars are already running these setups.

Originally Posted by auzziemonza

- Control front upright

For cost cutting it's a good idea but more unnecessary cost for current runners.

Originally Posted by auzziemonza

- Live rear end, 5 or 6 link

For cost cutting might be an ok idea but why would you make it compulsory to use such a dated suspension setup. The cost of IRS isn't huge if you use a conventional style diff (not transaxle), plenty of current performance production cars have monster strength OEM diffs that would easily be suitable i.e Toyota Supra, Nissan Skyline, BMW M5, etc

[Bread Roll]

Great stuff EL, we need your car and the rest of them on the track, so much opinion offered by spectators where are the teams and drivers when you need them

[johnny yuma]

Originally Posted by Gherkin

so does that mean there are only about four current V8 Supercars in Australia

Worse than that.V8 Supercar lap records are even more stagnant than Sports Sedan.Creating control categories by its very nature stifles innovation and improvement.Having no limits at all means money becomes the limiting factor-as in top echelon Sports Sedans,so that ceases to be a development category at the top level.And yet LJ Toranas as an example in the Biante series get faster each year within their reasonable constraints-have a look at Trevor Talbot's times at Barbagello-within a second of Stubber's much complained about Camaro.

The sedan racing categories in Australia,except the Historics,are a shambles.

[Bread Roll]

Robert if you were around 33 years ago does that mean if we follow your logic that we should throw you out and replace you with something thats no so ancient?

[Robert Ryan]

Why would a common chassis and restricted body types be a control catergory. If their are freedoms in engine type etc?

[Robert Ryan]

Bread Roll how can you expect a current Sponsor who is not part of the business of the driver, to back something that is 33yrs old? I am actually younger than some of drivers in Sports Sedans, so you better watch it, you "whippersnapper"
Sports Sedans are not yet "officially" a Historic catergory, but they are getting there. How old is the body style on Ricciardello's Alfa?

[ASSA Member]

FalconEL comments are 100% correct, it has and always will revolve around the money issue for nearly all the competitors and it's pretty obvious that quite a few haven't at the moment got the finances to come out and run.I have heard it countless times of cars just sitting in sheds because there isn't enough money to go racing, regardless of whether it's for state or national level.
You have to be realistic, many of the competitors are like your normal blokes who have families, mortgages, jobs, business to run etc. For the majority it's hard enough to finance the build or purchase of a car, let alone take it all over Australia, race it and maintain it with no or very little financial support from sponsors.

I also don't see why there is a negative agenda with dragging out the old sport sedans, the class at national level just needs more cars regardless of their age. You can't tell me if some of the old big bangers came out to play, like Chris Clearihan's ex Edmonson Alfa & many others the fans on the hill wouldn't check them out and get excited.

[Robert Ryan]

Maybe I am coming from a different angle on this. I am very aware of the present situation, with Drivers, tight finances etc. What I am suggesting is someone trying to make it more than this. Well you never know, someone may take it to the next level.

[auzziemonza]

Originally Posted by ASSA Member

All pretty good ideas, the category has always needed help in getting it to go in the right direction.



Good idea in theory but getting a big time manufacturers to sponsor something so far removed from their original product will be difficult in my opinion.


Why, you'll wipe out around 85% of the existing national runners.


The second hand market for ex V8 Super car 6 speed Holingers will cease and the poor buggers who saved up to buy them will have to chuck them away!


Will make 90% of the current cars ineligible and it's by no means an easy fix either.


Why bother? Its not like an inboard setup costs a whole heap more, plus plenty of cars are already running these setups.


For cost cutting it's a good idea but more unnecessary cost for current runners.


For cost cutting might be an ok idea but why would you make it compulsory to use such a dated suspension setup. The cost of IRS isn't huge if you use a conventional style diff (not transaxle), plenty of current performance production cars have monster strength OEM diffs that would easily be suitable i.e Toyota Supra, Nissan Skyline, BMW M5, etc

ASSA, I would like to respond to you but this will take some time, sorry, just came off a single shift but I'm back on a double shift for tomorrow and Sunday so it will have to be Monday if OK?

If we can all look at positive forward ideas instead of backslapping those with 33 year old jiggers that do their best on the odd occasion (no offence intended Falc) would be a good start. Another good start would be to disband the NASSA and get an organiser in there!

[pete55]

The same can be said of Sports Sedans as could be of V8 Supercars. Sports Sedans do not need advanced technology to produce good racing. As it is currently the cost to build a competitive Sports Sedan is prohibitive to most of the drivers who chose to run Sports Sedans. A single spec Chassis and as suggested a simple suspension and drive line set up would be a good start to boost the ranks of Sports Sedans. As for the age of the bodies, I have no problem with a 30 year old body being used.

[Rombles1]

Nothing wrong with my wife's 33 year old body

Sounds like some people want controlled cost, some want unlimited development. Could you run two classes within the series, one for cars within the controlled specs, for those with limited budgets, and the other for those who want to spend to win? That way you don't alienate those with current cars (ie make the control bits pretty damn close to what is currently used), and you allow those that want to build an Alfa-beater to do so.

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by pete55

The same can be said of Sports Sedans as could be of V8 Supercars. Sports Sedans do not need advanced technology to produce good racing. As it is currently the cost to build a competitive Sports Sedan is prohibitive to most of the drivers who chose to run Sports Sedans. A single spec Chassis and as suggested a simple suspension and drive line set up would be a good start to boost the ranks of Sports Sedans. As for the age of the bodies, I have no problem with a 30 year old body being used.

I am a fan of Basil Ricciardello & his Alfa (s) - I go back to Basil punting his Fiat 2300 at Caversham - love to see Tony come to the East Coast (as did Brian Smith before him) & keep winning - BUT Sports Sedans have been dominated by Alfettas for 20 -25 years. The Prelude took over for a short time, surely a more modern shape can be the face of Sports Sedans & I cant cop the TRanZam shapes which look more like speedway super sedans.

Maybe Sports Sedans need to find a big meeting & get as many cars as possible in one place at one time & try and revive the category initially with a sheer weight of numbers.

[Amonfan]

In the late 80s and early 90s was'nt there 1 off meets in Vic and NSW where they had a State Championship, ie Victorian Sports Sedan Championship? I think that may be the way to go, they had good grids for those events.