Porsche 997 - Development Curve

[bil588]

F430 GTCs still finished 1-2-3 in the Spa 24 hour race last year.

http://fiagt.com/results.php?season=...=Race%20Result

[Spyderman]

It was very interesting to see Norbert Singer in the IMSA Porsche pits.
I wonder what this may bring for 2008. (if anything)

Also - back in 2003 when asked for how long did he think the 911 would be competitive, he replied "5 years". He explained that it impossible to predict anything over 5 years in motor racing.

[bil588]

Isn't the IMSA team factory supported?

[Spyderman]

Well Norbert Singer is retired , but it was quoted in christophorus (the official Porsche magazine) at the time of his retirement, that "He may return to the
Sarthe as a retiree—but only if there’s something there for him
to do: “You can only really experience Le Mans by living it.

[minimangler]

The Cayman COULD be better than a 997, and certainly has the better handling/chassis possibly aero, BUT Porsche won't put the best engine in it because then the 997 brand looks silly. If they eventually realise they're flogging that dead pferd (horse for those not speaking any German) then they might swallow their pride and put the engine in the middle. Richard Hammond put it thus: "If you were a normal person and you got up one morning and stubbed you toe on a table, you would move the table. If you were a German, you would redesign your foot."
Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but they do seem to struggle against a 430.

[Spyderman]

I would say they did a pretty good job at Le Mans.
They were quicker than the 430's and outlasted them.
The problems seems to be with the shorter races and tracks.

[Gendebien]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

It was very interesting to see Norbert Singer in the IMSA Porsche pits.
I wonder what this may bring for 2008. (if anything)

He still has an consultant contract with Porsche.

That allows him to be at the race tracks with several teams. 2005 with GruppeM in FIA GT, 2006 with Autorlando in LMS, with Felbermayr-Proton in LMS this year, and sometimes with other teams in special events like last weekend.

But he is not involved in development and only GT, not LMP2.

[Speed-King]

I think he was with Brumos in the Daytona24 as well....

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Gendebien

He still has an consultant contract with Porsche.

That allows him to be at the race tracks with several teams. 2005 with GruppeM in FIA GT, 2006 with Autorlando in LMS, with Felbermayr-Proton in LMS this year, and sometimes with other teams in special events like last weekend.

But he is not involved in development and only GT, not LMP2.

Do you know if he was there last year?

[prototype]

Okay, 18 hour car.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Do you know if he was there last year?

Like this year he was supporting the IMSA team.

[Spyderman]

According to his fan club, he also helps with the Spyder (at least in 2006)

http://www.adpix.biz/sudwind/singer/theclub.htm

[old man]

Very difficult to compare performance of 430 and RSR at LM in general because there are many teams with "gentleman" drivers and you need to take care of the car and be quick to win unless, like last year, it is a case of "last man standing". My best contact on the driving front feels that LM is more a Porsche circuit than Spa but with changes at both this year we shall see. I still think they need to bring out a top class mid engined car, at present the sales of 997s are still good and you need to sell two Caymans for each 997. Cayman did OK at Nurburgring

[Spyderman]

I'm 100% in agreement with you.
What is worrying is that the "top class mid engined car" does not apear anywhere in Porsche's known plans.
Now, unless the rumored 911 substitute (expected around 2011) has something very special, we could be in for a tough time!

N.B. if its a mid engined car (for 2011), then it won't be a 911.

[Speed-King]

I have virtually no knowledge of the tech-site of sportscars, so excuse my super-noobish-question, but: would it be possible to built a mid-mounted-engine into the shell of a current/future 911?
If so they could built the future race cars and homologation model as mid engined cars and retain the classic rear-engined configuration for the majority of the 911 road cars...

Or am I just insane?!

[SebringMG]

Have heard rumours of a planned GT1 spec car - believed to be replacing the Carrera GT. No idea of a planned introductory date.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I have virtually no knowledge of the tech-site of sportscars, so excuse my super-noobish-question, but: would it be possible to built a mid-mounted-engine into the shell of a current/future 911?
If so they could built the future race cars and homologation model as mid engined cars and retain the classic rear-engined configuration for the majority of the 911 road cars...

Or am I just insane?!

The 90's GT1 was that car, the engine was mid-mounted. Also, Fabcar built an IMSA GTU (I forget class momenclature for that time), that was mid engine 911 (IMSA allowed it because motor was much smaller capacity, I believe 2 litre, but I am old, memory going...)

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

Have heard rumours of a planned GT1 spec car - believed to be replacing the Carrera GT. No idea of a planned introductory date.

Wait!! There is a thread about doing away with GT1 and Making a cheaper GT2 and GT3 operational classes. If Porsche built a GT1, the class wouldn't go away

By-the-way, that would get them around the challenge of going head to head with Audi, and if they built GT1 that would seem to put an end to any speculation about them going LMP1

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by skycafe

If Porsche built a GT1, the class wouldn't go away

As shown by history.

[fausto]

Originally Posted by skycafe

The 90's GT1 was that car, the engine was mid-mounted. Also, Fabcar built an IMSA GTU (I forget class momenclature for that time), that was mid engine 911 (IMSA allowed it because motor was much smaller capacity, I believe 2 litre, but I am old, memory going...)

The mid-engined Fabcar mid-engined 911 motor was bigger than 2-litre, the rules allowed engine position swap, together with the adoption of tube frame chassis (or non-original chassis), the class was called GTS-2.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

Have heard rumours of a planned GT1 spec car - believed to be replacing the Carrera GT. No idea of a planned introductory date.

Yes.. I forgot about that rumor!
That came out about a year ago, and I haven’t heard anything since then.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Wait!! There is a thread about doing away with GT1 and Making a cheaper GT2 and GT3 operational classes. If Porsche built a GT1, the class wouldn't go away

By-the-way, that would get them around the challenge of going head to head with Audi, and if they built GT1 that would seem to put an end to any speculation about them going LMP1

I really don't think Porsche is fearful of the "challenge" of going head to head with Audi provided that they are able to do so under a set of rules that allows them to be competitive.
They seemed to relish taking “them on” in the ALMS, but unfortunately the 5% restriction (and the 50 Kg weight penalty for P 2’s next year) has put a stop to that.

On the other hand, Porsche is the largest share holder in VAG, so going into LMP1 and "taking on" Audi on European circuits (read markets) will unfortunately involve a lot of board room politics.
Diesels are big business in Europe.
Not so much in the US.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by fausto

The mid-engined Fabcar mid-engined 911 motor was bigger than 2-litre, the rules allowed engine position swap, together with the adoption of tube frame chassis (or non-original chassis), the class was called GTS-2.

2.5? I mentioned this car mostly to illustrate that this was possible within the shell (although it presents some legroom challenges), indeed if Porsche decided to do such a thing it demands complete reworking of chassis.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I really don't think Porsche is fearful of the "challenge" of going head to head with Audi provided that they are able to do so under a set of rules that allows them to be competitive.
They seemed to relish taking “them on” in the ALMS, but unfortunately the 5% restriction (and the 50 Kg weight penalty for P 2’s next year) has put a stop to that.

On the other hand, Porsche is the largest share holder in VAG, so going into LMP1 and "taking on" Audi on European circuits (read markets) will unfortunately involve a lot of board room politics.
Diesels are big business in Europe.
Not so much in the US.

My mention of the term 'challenge' was not anything to do with on track competion, but was indeed the challenge of the board room. If Porsche pursued development of a GT1, they are potentially free of that board room challenge. Obviously it would still face the challenge of viability anyway, is it worth the expense to develop it for GT1 wins?

robert

[fausto]

Originally Posted by skycafe

2.5? I mentioned this car mostly to illustrate that this was possible within the shell (although it presents some legroom challenges), indeed if Porsche decided to do such a thing it demands complete reworking of chassis.

Could possibly be a 2.8, I remember that RaceCarEngineering had a piece about the mkI car, based on the 964 "911" (the last one with upright front lights), must check...