[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

I know this get discussed to death but for a team renowned for its ruthlessness, I just cannot see any justification for Perez to retain his seat next year.
All the chatter seems to suggest that the second RB seat is not up for grabs - which if I find baffling given Perez’s quali performances. They need a good strong number 2, especially given the diver line ups for McLaren and Ferrari in 25.

At the very least, put Yuki in it!

Go back through practice and qualifying.
Look at the Perez times between him the fastest times in FP1, FP2, FP3, (Hamilton and Leclerc).
Then read the team comments on qualifying.
Then note that Albon and Gasly both ended up in Q3.
Then also note the Alonso went out in Q1 as well as Perez and both had the same issue with traffic because of the narrow nature of the circuit.

If you simply look at some order without understanding behind it you will easily make false assumptions. qualifying in Monaco can be a dog's breakfast.

Coming across a slow car creates airflow problems and time problems. Alonso said as much as 2 tenths. So thats where the time goes. Margins here are tiny.
And the RB20 obviously doesn't like Monaco.
It doesn't play to the cars strengths.

So the qualifying is not representative entirely of race pace.... But you cannot pass easily.
So what are the odds of Albon and Gasly leading trains of cars that can't pass except during pitstops? Possibly quite high.

Wait and watch on Sunday.

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Go back through practice and qualifying.
Look at the Perez times between him the fastest times in FP1, FP2, FP3, (Hamilton and Leclerc).
Then read the team comments on qualifying.
Then note that Albon and Gasly both ended up in Q3.
Then also note the Alonso went out in Q1 as well as Perez and both had the same issue with traffic because of the narrow nature of the circuit.

If you simply look at some order without understanding behind it you will easily make false assumptions. qualifying in Monaco can be a dog's breakfast.

Coming across a slow car creates airflow problems and time problems. Alonso said as much as 2 tenths. So thats where the time goes. Margins here are tiny.
And the RB20 obviously doesn't like Monaco.
It doesn't play to the cars strengths.

So the qualifying is not representative entirely of race pace.... But you cannot pass easily.
So what are the odds of Albon and Gasly leading trains of cars that can't pass except during pitstops? Possibly quite high.

Wait and watch on Sunday.

This is fine for a one off, but at Imola Perez managed to miss Q3 and only finished the race in 7th.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Beau2

This is fine for a one off, but at Imola Perez managed to miss Q3 and only finished the race in 7th.

At Imola he missed Q3 by hundredths of a second. Qualified 11th after someone dropped a final attempt less than half a tenth faster.
Can you pronounce any three-syllable word audibly legible in a flow of speech within 3 or 4 hundredths of a second? Most people can't.

Monaco?
Well look at the size of the problem.
Perez is not Max, that's why Checo is No. 2 and Max is the lead driver.

From Racer Magazine.
https://racer.com/2024/05/25/i-cant-...th-verstappen/

This is Red Bulls weak point.
And the other guy who didn't make it out of Q1?
Fernando whatshisname?
He missed it at Imola too, but no one has questioned his credentials for his seat.
But they question Lance Stroll who has outqualified him at the last two events.

[Beau2]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

At Imola he missed Q3 by hundredths of a second. Can you pronounce any three-syllable word audibly legible in a flow of speech within 3 or 4 hundredths of a second? Most people can't.

Well look at the size of the problem.
Perez is not Max, that's why Checo is No. 2 and Max is the lead driver.

From Racer Magazine.
https://racer.com/2024/05/25/i-cant-...th-verstappen/

This is Red Bulls weak point.

The problem at Imola was that Perez was 6 tenths behind Max in Q2. It's irrelevent how close he was to making it to Q3 when the gap to his team mate was one of the biggest on the grid.
That is not good enough.

You're right, Checo is not Max but right now Checo isn't exactly helping RB get another WCC.Coincidentally, Checo did exactly the same thing last year; he started the season well and then fell apart in Europe.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Beau2

The problem at Imola was that Perez was 6 tenths behind Max in Q2. It's irrelevent how close he was to making it to Q3 when the gap to his team mate was one of the biggest on the grid.
That is not good enough.

You're right, Checo is not Max but right now Checo isn't exactly helping RB get another WCC.Coincidentally, Checo did exactly the same thing last year; he started the season well and then fell apart in Europe.

Its not relevant if you look at the events that occurred during practice and qualifying for both drivers regarding the set up and handling of the car.
Horner confirmed the issues.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Its not relevant if you look at the events that occurred during practice and qualifying for both drivers regarding the set up and handling of the car.
Horner confirmed the issues.

I'm just thankful that RBR have issues......

[GT6]

yep a bad week for RBR makes a change

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by GT6

yep a bad week for RBR makes a change

Haven’t seen an RBR canoe in some time..

Yet they will get to the next event and the regular timetable and grid positions will reappear, as if by miracle.

Yuki to Red Bull?

[Rusty Nail]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Yuki to Red Bull?

Nah. They'll leave him where he is, replace DR with LL and then pick the best one for Red Bull the following season.

[chillibowl]

is losing/coming in 2nd for the constructors as big of a deal as it once was?

sure its less money but in terms of sponsors retention and merch sales, a Perez re signing surely would more than make up for that shortfall. he probably is the most lucrative driver on the grid in this respect no?

and 2nd place gets more wind tunnel time and CFD time (i believe) than the 1st place team so there is also a win there...perhaps magnified next year as a new rule set approaches.

but if they care more about the trophy, then its only a matter of time before Ferrari start deprioritizing Sainz to the detriment of their points accumulation so its still RB's constructors to lose this year...and next season both Ferrari and Mclaren will be in a similar boat with two top talents potentially taking points off each other while RB gets to continue playing the clear 1-2 game.

i would also think a Perez re signing means Max is staying with RB next year so thats got to be the real win for the team anyways?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

I know this get discussed to death but for a team renowned for its ruthlessness, I just cannot see any justification for Perez to retain his seat next year.

Perez is a compliant number 2 driver and brings in $50m p/a in value in the form of sponsorship and 65% of RBR merchandise sales apparently.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

is losing/coming in 2nd for the constructors as big of a deal as it once was?

sure its less money but in terms of sponsors retention and merch sales, a Perez re signing surely would more than make up for that shortfall. he probably is the most lucrative driver on the grid in this respect no?

and 2nd place gets more wind tunnel time and CFD time (i believe) than the 1st place team so there is also a win there...perhaps magnified next year as a new rule set approaches.

but if they care more about the trophy, then its only a matter of time before Ferrari start deprioritizing Sainz to the detriment of their points accumulation so its still RB's constructors to lose this year...and next season both Ferrari and Mclaren will be in a similar boat with two top talents potentially taking points off each other while RB gets to continue playing the clear 1-2 game.

i would also think a Perez re signing means Max is staying with RB next year so thats got to be the real win for the team anyways?

well look at the numbers.
4 teams, Red Bull, Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes.
If they all finish they dominate the top 8 places, (25, 18, 15, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4 points).

If RBR get a win and Perez comes home 8th that is 29 points.
If Ferrari get second and the other comes home 7th, that is 24 points.
If Mclaren finish 3rd and 6th that is 23 points.
And If Mercedes finish 4th and 5th on avargae that is 22 points.

So I cant see any of the teams actually defeating RBR in 2024 without producing a car that is much more dominant than the RB20....
Or RBR simply losing the plot and the technical advantage they have.

What about the recent problems with set-up? Is this a weak point?

Probably not. Less so at Miami but more so at Imola and definitely at Monaco, but what are the common factors?
Max said on a Racer interview at Monaco the car was still good in the faster parts but hopping around on bumps and curbs and seriously difficult, abrupt handling.
If the car is settled in the fast parts that is what it is designed to do.
But slow corners and curb hopping and bumps at low speed probably upset the balanced ride height aero meaning the car loses is grip suddenly and unpredictably because the speed is relatively low and the full effect of the aero is negated by the lower corner speeds.

Montreal is lots of sweeping corners so may bring the RB20 back to a better balance across a lap and Barcelona is high speed stuff and staying off the curbs which will play to its strengths. Austria has slower corners but is point and squirt a lot more than Barcelona, but the aero will still be operating at relatively high speed and the same at Silverstone.

I think the concerns for RBR will actually diminish and we will see the Imola and Monaco problems fade away.

[PanozDP01]

Well, it is really happening. Red Bull are signing Perez yet again. Even while his collapse in form started just in time. RBR talk a big game about winning but clearly personal politics is a higher priority. This is rewarding failure at its worst. At least Lance Stroll is the owners son.

RBR should have considered it a gift that Sainz was shaken out of Ferrari. Sainz has been winning the races that Perez was hired to win. Perez cost RBR the WCC in 2021 and he will do the same in 2024.

People say that Perez brings money. Well, RBR is drowning in it. But hey, if you want money and want to sell drinks, Zhou is an option. He is a more steady pair of hands than Perez is. Whatever, I guess it will be fun watching the red faces at RBR as they own their mistake every weekend.

https://youtu.be/l1rns6VEALs?si=6yzEmgdrAviIr9nI

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

At Imola he missed Q3 by hundredths of a second. Qualified 11th after someone dropped a final attempt less than half a tenth faster.
Can you pronounce any three-syllable word audibly legible in a flow of speech within 3 or 4 hundredths of a second? Most people can't.

Monaco?
Well look at the size of the problem.
Perez is not Max, that's why Checo is No. 2 and Max is the lead driver.

From Racer Magazine.
https://racer.com/2024/05/25/i-cant-...th-verstappen/

This is Red Bulls weak point.
And the other guy who didn't make it out of Q1?
Fernando whatshisname?
He missed it at Imola too, but no one has questioned his credentials for his seat.
But they question Lance Stroll who has outqualified him at the last two events.

There is always excuses for Perez. But his annual collapse in form is happening just in time yet again.

This is called rewarding failure. He just doesn't have it and barely had it. Even in 2021, Gasly beat him in the Toro Rosso 7 times. And his lack of form in the Euro tracks cost Red Bull the WCC. This is sure to happen again.

And its not like there isn't any options out there. At the start of the year, options were almost limitless. They could have went for Alonso or Hulk. But they passed on them. Then there's Carlos Sainz, Bottas, Tsunoda, Gasly or even Zhou (if the team wants money)

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

is losing/coming in 2nd for the constructors as big of a deal as it once was?

sure its less money but in terms of sponsors retention and merch sales, a Perez re signing surely would more than make up for that shortfall.

If the team isn't there to win, then they should just sell.


It is ok to have a #2 driver. Like Bottas was. But he was guaranteed Q3 driver for the whole of his Mercedes stint. Perez simply isn't up for the job and there was and are many other options to replacing him

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by PanozDP01

If the team isn't there to win, then they should just sell.


It is ok to have a #2 driver. Like Bottas was. But he was guaranteed Q3 driver for the whole of his Mercedes stint. Perez simply isn't up for the job and there was and are many other options to replacing him

No there aren't many options to replace him.
The team knows what they want.
Just wait and see.

[Rusty Nail]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

No there aren't many options to replace him.
The team knows what they want.
Just wait and see.

The suspense is killing me.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by PanozDP01

There is always excuses for Perez. But his annual collapse in form is happening just in time yet again.

This is called rewarding failure. He just doesn't have it and barely had it. Even in 2021, Gasly beat him in the Toro Rosso 7 times. And his lack of form in the Euro tracks cost Red Bull the WCC. This is sure to happen again.

And its not like there isn't any options out there. At the start of the year, options were almost limitless. They could have went for Alonso or Hulk. But they passed on them. Then there's Carlos Sainz, Bottas, Tsunoda, Gasly or even Zhou (if the team wants money)

There are 15 million reasons to keep him

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

There are 15 million reasons to keep him

15 million ? That's it ? Zhou can bring double that.

Red Bull swam in money even before Oracle came along. This just cant be the reason. Why would a team like Red Bull knowingly surrender a WCC for 2 years over 15 million dollars?

[Skam85]

You realise Perez's defending in Abu Dhabi 2021 was one of the main reasons Max won the title right?

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Skam85

You realise Perez's defending in Abu Dhabi 2021 was one of the main reasons Max won the title right?

Well there does not seem to be much logic to many above the posts above, not sure paying attention to on track and points is a strength for some. Remember, not the 90s-10s any more, more money does not mean more success with a spending cap. Are they gonna squirrel it away and run 10 years without sponsors later cause they got more money?

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Well there does not seem to be much logic to many above the posts above, not sure paying attention to on track and points is a strength for some. Remember, not the 90s-10s any more, more money does not mean more success with a spending cap. Are they gonna squirrel it away and run 10 years without sponsors later cause they got more money?

Yeah true, I've yet to see much logic to back up "George iz da best guyz"

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by Skam85

You realise Perez's defending in Abu Dhabi 2021 was one of the main reasons Max won the title right?

True. Red Bull gets a pass for the first Perez contract. He helped Max secure the title. He also crashed on the staging lap at Spa that year.
https://youtu.be/fV92R74FiAE?si=hOCixVRN6L6j6jMX

But I don't see how Red Bull should get a pass for the second Perez contract. And for sure not the third. Perez doesn't even make a natural #2 driver. Like Bottas did. Checo's priorities are himself first, his country second and Red Bull a distant third. He crashed in qualifying on purpose for god sake. That is a very underhanded move for a #2 driver. He gets on the radio and says "we need to talk" because strategy favored Max. Who happens to be the best in the world at the moment. The audacity of the guy.

Red Bull had to know this and they deserve to be ridiculed for it when Checo does Checo things.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Skam85

You realise Perez's defending in Abu Dhabi 2021 was one of the main reasons Max won the title right?

I'd need to double check this, but I don't believe this is the case. Perez allowed the gap to close from 11 seconds to just over a second. The gap then later went back out to 5 seconds. After the final round of stops the gap was back at 11 seconds. And of course, regardless of what Sergio did, that was all neutralised with the final safety car.

All Sergio did was make sure the gap was smaller before the safety car. Which, regardless if it was 5 seconds or 50 seconds, became nothing.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I'd need to double check this, but I don't believe this is the case. Perez allowed the gap to close from 11 seconds to just over a second. The gap then later went back out to 5 seconds. After the final round of stops the gap was back at 11 seconds. And of course, regardless of what Sergio did, that was all neutralised with the final safety car.

All Sergio did was make sure the gap was smaller before the safety car. Which, regardless if it was 5 seconds or 50 seconds, became nothing.

The way I remember it was his defending cost Lewis the window to box under the last SC for fresh tyres and come back out in the lead