Delta Wing Discussion ONLY

[gwyllion]

In fact that is covered in the RCE article.

The only surprise to me was the exceptional straight-line stability. With a narrow front track, the car does not tramline over bumps in the way a conventional car would.

source: http://gb.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issn=0961-1096&p=11

[wnut]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The latest edition of RCE has an article by Marshall Pruett on the DeltaWing: http://gb.zinio.com/reader.jsp?issn=0961-1096&p=8

Thanks: Interesting article.

Incertitude ?!

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by The Badger

We all know the Mulsanne is a public road , much used by heavy trucks . The heavy traffic forms a groove . The rear wheels will nestle into the groove , while the fronts will ride the crest .
Seems to me there will be some very erratic driving style required .

Incidentally Mulsanne straight has been repaved last fall so the grooves shouldn't be too much of a problem.

http://www.lemans.org/fr/courses/24h...ideo_5415.html

[The Badger]

We'll see about that under straight line performance . 50,000 trucks can do quick work .

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I feel its dangerous , not well thought out , while the principle of it is worthy .

I'll disagree, I think it's going to be a pointless concept well executed.

[merlot brougham]

Originally Posted by The Badger

We'll see about that under straight line performance . 50,000 trucks can do quick work .

Regardless, that's what Le Mans test day will be for.

I just started wondering about the engine for once and not the car itself. There is going to be a LOT of full-throttle running for that little 4-banger. I wonder what sort of durability issues they may run into after 12 hours of running.

Badger, I'm all for that separate thread

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

I'll disagree, I think it's going to be a pointless concept well executed.

That is the single best comment that I have read about the delta!!!!!

[Dyson Mazda]

I was thinking today, could the Deltawing be basis for the first all electric car to run the race?

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

I was thinking today, could the Deltawing be basis for the first all electric car to run the race?

And the bad dream turns into a nightmare....
Calling this green is already a joke, let's now add disposable batteries thrown away after each session that are charged from a grid that is powered by burning coal.
Man I wish Don would have taken this money and invested in a proper conventional LMP1 effort to support his series, or how about getting the rumoured customer R15 program that was floating around a while back? The scary part is his intent is to produce and sell these monstrosities. One experimental car is enough for me.

[Dyson Mazda]

And the bad dream turns into a nightmare....
Calling this green is already a joke, let's now add disposable batteries thrown away after each session that are charged from a grid that is powered by burning coal.
Man I wish Don would have taken this money and invested in a proper LMP1 effort to support his series. The scary part is his intent is to produce and sell these monstrosities. One experimental car is enough for me.

I would have been ok with a mediocre LMP1 effort, like a Panoz rebadged Cosworth in the back of a Lola or something along those lines.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Having said all that, it is still better to have this than the Abruzzi. I had my F1 group of friends over on the weekend to watch the Chinese GP and one them out of the blue said "Hey have you seen the Nissan Deltawing?" If it gets new eyes onto sportscars that is not a bad thing.

[icemachine]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

And the bad dream turns into a nightmare....
Calling this green is already a joke, let's now add disposable batteries thrown away after each session that are charged from a grid that is powered by burning coal.
Man I wish Don would have taken this money and invested in a proper conventional LMP1 effort to support his series, or how about getting the rumoured customer R15 program that was floating around a while back? The scary part is his intent is to produce and sell these monstrosities. One experimental car is enough for me.

Just because Alberta and much of the States relies on coal doesn't mean everyone does. France is pretty much Nuclear powered and I'm sure they would be likely to sign on a "green" energy company like Bullfrog should they ever do such a program.

However battery tech is not at the point where the only way to consider it would if you could swap the battery during a pitstop as there is no way to charge battery's that fast nor one that could get them more than maybe 200 km without being an inordinate weight penalty

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

And the bad dream turns into a nightmare....
Calling this green is already a joke, let's now add disposable batteries thrown away after each session that are charged from a grid that is powered by burning coal.
Man I wish Don would have taken this money and invested in a proper conventional LMP1 effort to support his series, or how about getting the rumoured customer R15 program that was floating around a while back? The scary part is his intent is to produce and sell these monstrosities. One experimental car is enough for me.

I'm not a fan of electric cars, but I don't think any of them use disposable batteries. They get recycled at the end of their useful life.

How is using half the fuel to go the same speed not green?

[Maelochs]

Saying the batteries get recycled makes it sound like all the stuff is reusable. Batteries tend to be very toxic to make and discard, and not much good can be recycled.

It's like water bottles: people use them by the billions and think they are helping by tossing them in recycling bins, but most of the plastic recovered is useless for anything but blown-plastic insulation. Very low return from a water bottle.

Right now I'd say batteries are an environmental negative. The only benefit electric cars offer is in high-density urban areas where smog is a problem. Otherwise it is empty hype. They simply shift the fossil-fuel load away from the gas pump so no one thinks about it much. And the batteries---bad from start to finish.

Best options right now are natural gas (cleaner but hard to package) and algae-based isobutanol. Most other "green" fuels end up costing more in dollars and environmental damage (which is also more dollars) than gasoline.

[merlot brougham]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I'm not a fan of electric cars, but I don't think any of them use disposable batteries. They get recycled at the end of their useful life.

How is using half the fuel to go the same speed not green?

I think what he was saying is that the batteries as used in a hybrid system in a racecar or in a full-electric racecar would come down to being discharged in such a fashion that they would only last one race. Like in F1, the batteries are being abused to a point where they are only good for one race weekend, if that.

And the "recycling" of batteries as used in cars (Li-ion, NiMH) is still a dubious thing. To the point that the depreciation of a Nissan Leaf is essentially one quarter the original value lost each year since the batteries are anticipated to only last 4 years. Nissan still doesn't have a "recycling" strategy in place.

I'm no electrochemist but it would be my understanding that most, if not all, of the cathode and anode material would have to be replaced. This does not make friendly for the environment despite what many would have the public believe. This also just creates a situation where countries would stop being dependent on "foreign oil" and replacing it with a dependence on "foreign elements" needed to make batteries. And guess what? Just like oil there is a finite amount of these elements available.

So this is again just another ruse to claim "green-ness" and "earth friendliness" while still not addressing the core problems. Can't we just race cars with screaming internal combustion engines?

Or maybe that wasn't what he was trying to say. I got too far into my rant to stop.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by merlot brougham

I think what he was saying is that the batteries as used in a hybrid system in a racecar or in a full-electric racecar would come down to being discharged in such a fashion that they would only last one race. Like in F1, the batteries are being abused to a point where they are only good for one race weekend, if that.

And the "recycling" of batteries as used in cars (Li-ion, NiMH) is still a dubious thing. To the point that the depreciation of a Nissan Leaf is essentially one quarter the original value lost each year since the batteries are anticipated to only last 4 years. Nissan still doesn't have a "recycling" strategy in place.

I'm no electrochemist but it would be my understanding that most, if not all, of the cathode and anode material would have to be replaced. This does not make friendly for the environment despite what many would have the public believe. This also just creates a situation where countries would stop being dependent on "foreign oil" and replacing it with a dependence on "foreign elements" needed to make batteries. And guess what? Just like oil there is a finite amount of these elements available.

So this is again just another ruse to claim "green-ness" and "earth friendliness" while still not addressing the core problems. Can't we just race cars with screaming internal combustion engines?

Or maybe that wasn't what he was trying to say. I got too far into my rant to stop.

F1 does everything to extreme, so I wouldn't hold them up as a shining example of environmental stewardship.

Why can't they do something obvious, like tires that last a whopping 200 miles (or even 300 miles for the whole weekend) and have less marbles discouraging off line passes? Win-win.

In any case, I don't know if I can post links, but:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/29...cling-program/
Basically, a battery is no good anymore if the components are oxidized or otherwise impure. Then, the heart of the recycling process (after the hassle of taking the whole thing apart in a safe manner), is re-refining it, much as was done with the raw materials extracted from the earth to make the thing in the first place.

But, like I say, I don't think electric is the way to go. I think hydrogen fuel cell is the way to go, and in the shorter term, internal combustion hybrids are a great solution. I'm partial to the flywheel storage concept, storing one stop from cruising speed worth of energy, but batteries doing that are also a reasonable solution, and weigh a lot less than the batteries needed for a fully electric car, and conventional liquid fuels have a lot better energy density by volume and weight.

I think the Delta Wing would make a great platform for exploring that sort of approach. It could then get about triple the fuel milage of a conventional approach, depending on how much braking is involved in getting around a given course.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by icemachine

Just because Alberta and much of the States relies on coal doesn't mean everyone does. France is pretty much Nuclear powered and I'm sure they would be likely to sign on a "green" energy company like Bullfrog should they ever do such a program.

However battery tech is not at the point where the only way to consider it would if you could swap the battery during a pitstop as there is no way to charge battery's that fast nor one that could get them more than maybe 200 km without being an inordinate weight penalty

Wow, What are the carbon emissions from your car plants that are subsidized by our tax dollars from the oil patch? Don't act all green compared to us.My point is calling electric cars green is a lie. Racing should work on fuel economy or even natural gas technology to maximize road relevancy.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I'm not a fan of electric cars, but I don't think any of them use disposable batteries. They get recycled at the end of their useful life.

How is using half the fuel to go the same speed not green?

Of all the energy consumed by a race team in a year for operations the fuel used for racing itself is a small percentage. It is a good start but how about converting their shop to solar and their trucks to natural gas, etc?

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Of all the energy consumed by a race team in a year for operations the fuel used for racing itself is a small percentage. It is a good start but how about converting their shop to solar and their trucks to natural gas, etc?

I'd say do that too. Highway trucks going up and down hills are also a great place to use electric hybrid technology. I live in a mountainous area, so I probably have a warped sense of priorities, but for trucks that get a lot of mountain use, like here in the western US, they could provide larger storage systems than would make sense most areas.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Of all the energy consumed by a race team in a year for operations the fuel used for racing itself is a small percentage. It is a good start but how about converting their shop to solar and their trucks to natural gas, etc?

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
Total human contribution to global warming is .28%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas
Methane gas (biggest component of natural gas) has 72X the 20 yearglobal heating potential of Co2

Global warming is a snow job, designed to get CO2 taxed!

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by wnut

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
Total human contribution to global warming is .28%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas
Methane gas (biggest component of natural gas) has 72X the 20 yearglobal heating potential of Co2

Global warming is a snow job, designed to get CO2 taxed!

Well done, with two internet links (one of which is wikipedia) you have completely dispelled the myth of global warming.

Now explain how fossil fuels are in limited supply. Or do we not need to? The only possible reason any car could need to be efficient is for global warming, nothing to do with deplenishing resources. Therefore the Deltawing is irrelevant.

[merlot brougham]

Originally Posted by wnut

Global warming is a snow job, designed to get CO2 taxed!

So much face palm in one small statement. I didn't know there were still paranoid deniers out there. The earth's environment has ALWAYS been in a state of cooling or warming since it's inception. To deny that humankind is having an impact on this cycle is utterly irresponsible and ignorant.

Originally Posted by miatanut

F1 does everything to extreme, so I wouldn't hold them up as a shining example of environmental stewardship.

In any case, I don't know if I can post links, but:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/29...cling-program/

But, like I say, I don't think electric is the way to go. I think hydrogen fuel cell is the way to go, and in the shorter term, internal combustion hybrids are a great solution. I'm partial to the flywheel storage concept, storing one stop from cruising speed worth of energy, but batteries doing that are also a reasonable solution, and weigh a lot less than the batteries needed for a fully electric car, and conventional liquid fuels have a lot better energy density by volume and weight.

I think the Delta Wing would make a great platform for exploring that sort of approach.

I highlighted the most important phrase, in my opinion in your entire post. Humans need to learn that we need to become stewards of the environment as opposed to exploiting it for economic gain. But the question I have is, should motorsport be an example of this? I'm just not convinced it should.

Regarding the Toyota recycling, that is with NiMH batteries. This is truly old technology and HEAVY technology. With the push towards greater efficiency that battery technology is on the way out. Regardless, I see your point that it is possible. But still a pretty toxic path.

Hydrogen fuel cells require a catalyst elements to begin the process to generate electricity. Usually this is platinum and nickel. Again, there are finite amounts of these elements and it cannot be a long term solution as they are already pretty dear. I too think flywheels are a great idea, I just wonder how far away we are from having it in a commercial application.

I don't claim to have the solutions I just know everything we seem to be looking at seems like a band aid to me. I too think the DeltaWing could become a showcase for new explorations of efficient technology. Better that than racing against conventional LMPs to me.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by wnut

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
Total human contribution to global warming is .28%

Don't worry, we can still make matters worse by producing lots of Li-ion batteries to charge them with fossil-based energy and throwing them away after a couple of years.

[Maelochs]

As to whether racing Should be the example of environmental stewardship … Auto makers have chosen to justify racing that way—and then undercut their own messages by using batteries once, and tires for only a couple dozen laps.

The biggest fuel cost associated with racing is probably the fan base—get the fans to stay home and watch TV and save a huge amount of energy.

Oh, well. People can be that way.

Speaking of people being funny, thanks for that “Global Warming is a myth designed to support a CO2 tax” bit. Hilarious.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by wnut

http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
Total human contribution to global warming is .28%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas
Methane gas (biggest component of natural gas) has 72X the 20 yearglobal heating potential of Co2

Global warming is a snow job, designed to get CO2 taxed!

The whole 'does CO2 cause global-climate-warming-change?' debate is gloriously pointless as the resources that we burn that produce CO2 are finite and will eventually run out.

The Delta Wing's relevance to road tech is debateable, however its relevance to motor sport in an era where the main resource we use to propel the cars is rapidly diminishing is very clear.