IMSA DPi Discussion

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I gather you feel entrance fees are bribes too? Or title sponsors... bribes?

I am referring exclusively to the annual million-dollar "marketing" fee that automotive manufacturers must pay to allow their machines to race in IMSA. It is allegedly intended to promote the series and the manufacturers' involvement, but to date has never been used for such. Pretty much everyone considers it nothing more than a bribe to be paid on top of the expected entrance fees.

It is not an issue for most teams, as the manufacturers are the ones expected to pay it.

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Oh. And just a point of reference... the "bribe" was payed by Fiat/Chrysler when the GTE cars were being run.

Indeed. But that has not been the case since they ended the program.

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

According to whom?

Let me put it this way...

If IMSA was the bigger series, wouldn't they be the ones that other organizations were actively seeking to work with? Stephane Ratel wasn't exactly keen on working with IMSA, and even the ACO is sick of their crap to the point where they've been regularly meeting with PWC management.

IMSA is clearly not regarded as the big dog they think they are by the aforementioned organizations. The fact that several manufacturers are unwilling to pay their bribe is also quite telling.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I am referring exclusively to the annual million-dollar "marketing" fee that automotive manufacturers must pay to allow their machines to race in IMSA. It is allegedly intended to promote the series and the manufacturers' involvement, but to date has never been used for such. Pretty much everyone considers it nothing more than a bribe to be paid on top of the expected entrance fees.



Let me put it this way...

If IMSA was the bigger series, wouldn't they be the ones that other organizations were actively seeking to work with? Stephane Ratel wasn't exactly keen on working with IMSA, and even the ACO is sick of their crap to the point where they've been regularly meeting with PWC management.

IMSA is clearly not regarded as the big dog they think they are by the aforementioned organizations. The fact that several manufacturers are unwilling to pay their bribe is also quite telling.

More nuggets of insight and wisdom in this post.










L.P.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

Keating has purchased a P2 Riley. No M-B for him.

Yep, a Riley/Multimatic Mk. 30 headed to IWSC with Keating and Bleekemolen.


http://www.racer.com/imsa/item/13341...eekemolen-deal







L.P.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

More nuggets of insight and wisdom in this post.

Care to elaborate on your specific issues with my post? Or would you prefer to continue to make yourself look bad by posting insults that contribute nothing to the conversation and serve only to annoy the moderators?

Either way is fine by me, but it would be nice to actually DISCUSS something for once.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Care to elaborate on your issues with my post? Or would you prefer to continue to make yourself look ignorant by posting insults that contribute nothing to the conversation and serve only to annoy the moderators?

Either way is fine by me.

First, I commented on the post not YOUR mental state.

As to the post, do tell how you got your hands on IMSA's ledger book to know how much they paid for anything! Or is there an NDA involved?

Secondly, The Rat relationship is you barometer on IMSA's importance?

As to the conversation, ever heard of DPi as it does not seem to be in YOUR conversation. Every other tangent most certainly is though!




L.P.

[Rcz]

Race on Sunday, sell on Monday

Racing now a days is just a form of ego driven advertisement.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

First, I commented on the post not YOUR mental state.

Sorry, you ain't fooling anyone with that. Your comment was a blatant attempt to disguise an effort to ridicule(IE, laugh at) me explicitly.

As to the post, do tell how you got your hands on IMSA's ledger book to know how much they paid for anything! Or is there an NDA involved?

Tell me, how much advertising for the manufacturers involved in IMSA have you actually seen?

That's what I thought. No matter how you slice it, the fact of the matter is that IMSA is not using the money for what it is claimed to be for. That only makes it look more like a bribe even if they're using it for something else.

Secondly, The Rat relationship is you barometer on IMSA's importance?

No. That's just a part of it that's publicly known well enough to actually be acknowledged. I notice you conveniently ignored the other part that I had explicitly mentioned, as well.

Credit where credit's due, though, you at least acknowledge the existence of the Ratel connection. FAR too many people out there are still denying that Ratel has anything to do with PWC.

As to the conversation, ever heard of DPi as it does not seem to be in YOUR conversation. Every other tangent most certainly is though

And you could have ignored it. But you didn't. And if you continue to choose not to ignore it, I'll be glad to shift it to an appropriate thread(as I did the last time a tangent was longer than a brief detour).

[chernaudi]

Does this payment include DPI?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Does this payment include DPI?

According to what I've been told, yes and no - if they already have a GTD they're actively paying up for, no fee is required for DPi, but a fee will be required to race DPi alone. It's not per car or per class, it's just to get in for a given season.

It's also specific to the mainstream manufacturers - it does not apply to PCs, and will in all likelihood not apply to ACO-spec P2s next year - let's just describe the information I've gotten on that part as "conflicting" and leave it at that. (unless someone else has something more concrete to add, of course)

[Bob Baldwin]

I thought we had already confirmed that Ratel had infact bought a minority stake in PWC . Though the reason behind that was never really stated . I had assumed He wanted a USA presence , At a time when PWC Needed an influx of Cash but that is only a guess on my part .

Not really sure of the SCCA company structure though have been told that all the PRO racing is operated independently from a financial view point .

I also think reguardless of structure SCCA has recently lost its president and CEO ? Have not heard any reason behind that . Would there be a Ratel connection behind that ?

With the recent buy out / merger I have no idea of the Corp structure entity we call sportscar though I think that ultimately you would have to trace it to ISC International Speedway Corp controlled buy the France Family but still listed as a publicly traded corp

[Coach Ep]

Massively OT Bob but....

Lisa Noble stepped down as SCCA's CEO (that's Club + Pro) a couple of weeks ago.

Derrick Walker has just announced his resignation as SCCA Pro director.

SCCA Pro is the logistics facilitator for PWC, TransAm, MX5 Cup, F4, etc. The series handle the promotion and marketing themselves (Worldvision for PWC).

SCCA Pro has had quite a few tough financial years in the recent past - Club had to fill in the deficits. As of now, it seems Pro is doing somewhat better and at least keeps it close to/just in black numbers but I haven't seen the hard figures (just haven't bothered to look at them, they're out there somewhere I take it).

Back to DPis again!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I am referring exclusively to the annual million-dollar "marketing" fee that automotive manufacturers must pay to allow their machines to race in IMSA. It is allegedly intended to promote the series and the manufacturers' involvement, but to date has never been used for such. Pretty much everyone considers it nothing more than a bribe to be paid on top of the expected entrance fees.

It is not an issue for most teams, as the manufacturers are the ones expected to pay it.

We are not privy to the books of the series, though in the past, I had some access to information... it certainly wasn't very profitable, and in a number of years required a capital infusion to keep it going.

The series promotes itself with TV shows, Internet feed, TV and other forms of advertising. These are all promotional items, and none are free. You, nor I, can tell how that gets paid, or if there is a direct tie from these sources of revenue to the series, or if it just goes in one big slush fund, and then gets paid out. In either case, the statement that it's never been used to promote the series or manufacturers is not one that can be substantiated, though we can say for certain, that the series does pay to promote the series, and it's participants. There is a casual link to the incoming funds, and the promotion of the series.

The manufacturers receive exposure for their participation, and that has a value. That manufacturers are "required" to pay to receive that exposure, as part of their participation, is nothing new at all. The main NASCAR series all have the same requirements. If you don't want to participate, and receive that exposure and advertising... or sell cars, that is fine, don't participate.

It's the cost of doing business here... just like an entrance fee and so on. It's the cost of having your name plate on display.

Let me put it this way...

If IMSA was the bigger series, wouldn't they be the ones that other organizations were actively seeking to work with? Stephane Ratel wasn't exactly keen on working with IMSA, and even the ACO is sick of their crap to the point where they've been regularly meeting with PWC management.

IMSA is clearly not regarded as the big dog they think they are by the aforementioned organizations. The fact that several manufacturers are unwilling to pay their bribe is also quite telling.

This is ridiculous.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Your comment was a blatant attempt to ridicule the post explicitly. FIFY



Tell me, how much advertising for the manufacturers involved in IMSA have you actually seen?

That's what I thought. No matter how you slice it, the fact of the matter is that IMSA is not using the money for what it is claimed to be for. That only makes it look more like a bribe even if they're using it for something else.



No. That's just a part of it that's publicly known well enough to actually be acknowledged. I notice you conveniently ignored the other part that I had explicitly mentioned, as well.

Credit where credit's due, though, you at least acknowledge the existence of the Ratel connection. FAR too many people out there are still denying that Ratel has anything to do with PWC.



And you could have ignored it. But you didn't. And if you continue to choose not to ignore it, I'll be glad to shift it to an appropriate thread(as I did the last time a tangent was longer than a brief detour).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

We are not privy to the books of the series, though in the past, I had some access to information... it certainly wasn't very profitable, and in a number of years required a capital infusion to keep it going.

The series promotes itself with TV shows, Internet feed, TV and other forms of advertising. These are all promotional items, and none are free. You, nor I, can tell how that gets paid, or if there is a direct tie from these sources of revenue to the series, or if it just goes in one big slush fund, and then gets paid out. In either case, the statement that it's never been used to promote the series or manufacturers is not one that can be substantiated, though we can say for certain, that the series does pay to promote the series, and it's participants. There is a casual link to the incoming funds, and the promotion of the series.

The manufacturers receive exposure for their participation, and that has a value. That manufacturers are "required" to pay to receive that exposure, as part of their participation, is nothing new at all. The main NASCAR series all have the same requirements. If you don't want to participate, and receive that exposure and advertising... or sell cars, that is fine, don't participate.

It's the cost of doing business here... just like an entrance fee and so on. It's the cost of having your name plate on display.









This is ridiculous.

And Bobs your uncle!


DPi moving along to pace..

http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints...=1&limitstart=






L.P.

[chernaudi]

OK, on GT3, maybe Ratel having interest in PWC is that they follow SRO BOP, and that the SRO and PWC have a common sponsor in Pirelli?

And it's finally nice to see some positive news on the DPI front, even if the two teams that have committed so far are probably going to be running ACO spec Rileys with Gibson V8s.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The series promotes itself with TV shows, Internet feed, TV and other forms of advertising. These are all promotional items, and none are free.

They are supposed to be using that money to promote the individual manufacturers. That is the claim made to justify it.

They are not doing so. Nearly everyone involved in the series that's had to pay up has described it as a bribe.

This is ridiculous.

This is reality.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

OK, on GT3, maybe Ratel having interest in PWC is that they follow SRO BOP, and that the SRO and PWC have a common sponsor in Pirelli?

Ratel wants to expand, and PWC was more willing to work with him on such things. Simple as that. The signs of the shift are already being seen in next year's schedule, but if we want to debate this further, please quote me in the PWC thread to do so.

And it's finally nice to see some positive news on the DPI front, even if the two teams that have committed so far are probably going to be running ACO spec Rileys with Gibson V8s.

You mean positive news on the P front. P2 and DPi may in the same class, but they're regarded differently.

There will most likely be two Gibson-powered Ligiers as well. Things are still getting finalized on that, though.

[chernaudi]

I can see plenty of Gibson powered cars in DPI next year, since the factories seem to be dragging their feet on making a (at least public) committal to the new class. And even then, only GM and Mazda have seemingly shown much interest for next year, while others are hung up on IMSA's insistence of using a factory designed bodykit.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

They are supposed to be using that money to promote the individual manufacturers. That is the claim made to justify it.

Can you please provide a link to where they made the claim that they would promote each individual manufacturer separately? I mean... that is what the broadcasts do... promote the manufacturer.. that shouldn't be too hard to understand.

They are not doing so. Nearly everyone involved in the series that's had to pay up has described it as a bribe.

People like to complain, and I highly doubt nearly everyone in the series described it as such. Maybe both of the people you talked to did... but that isn't nearly everybody.

You know, they could just jack up the entry fees instead, to cover that revenue variance. How does that sound? Maybe you could go back to the two people you talked to, and ask if they as an entrant, or AM driver, would prefer to pay that out of their pocket? Believe it or not, this is a business, and not a very profitable one... without some of this revenue stream, or without it being replaced from other sources, there is no series to worry about, or argue about. That is called reality.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Can you please provide a link to where they made the claim that they would promote each individual manufacturer separately?

They never made the claim publicly. The mere existence of this required payment is not publicized by IMSA, so what makes you think they'd publicize the fine details of what it's for? I only know about it because of the job I'm lined up for.

Speaking of, I double-checked on who's required to pay this fee. ACO-spec P2s are in the clear - The chassis manufacturers and Gibson are not required to pay the marketing fee. GM and Mazda must pay up to do their DPis, as will HPD if they opt to join. GM will already be paying the fee for the Corvette program, but Mazda has to pay specifically for their DPi.

Because it's an annual catch-all for all their entries, the more cars a manufacturer has lined up to run the less likely they are to care about it.

I mean... that is what the broadcasts do... promote the manufacturer.. that shouldn't be too hard to understand.

What's done on the broadcasts is not what is promised in exchange for the money. This is a big part of why Nissan, Bentley, and Mercedes have opted not to join up.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

Because it's an annual catch-all for all their entries, the more cars a manufacturer has lined up to run the less likely they are to care about it.

What's done on the broadcasts is not what is promised in exchange for the money. This is a big part of why Nissan, Bentley, and Mercedes have opted not to join up.

Each one of those would call out that publicly as why they are not in IMSA and in PWC, etc. And yet each has VISIBLY shown up at events, talked with teams and mulled involvement. Me thinks either you, or they are full of the proverbial brown stuff, and I'll give them much more benefit of the doubt.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

What's done on the broadcasts is not what is promised in exchange for the money. This is a big part of why Nissan, Bentley, and Mercedes have opted not to join up.

Because it's an annual catch-all for all their entries, the more cars a manufacturer has lined up to run the less likely they are to care about it.

You kind of answered your own question there.... it didn't make business sense for N, B and M to pay $1M to field a car or two... and that's ok with IMSA. In either case, Nissan wouldn't pay that kind of money for racing anyway, they've been cheap for a very long time.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

You kind of answered your own question there....

I wasn't asking any questions.

[Matt]

FF makes these threads even less fun than usual.

It's almost a chore having to read through these things now with all the damn unwarranted negativity.

[Bcarr6]

Originally Posted by Matt

FF makes these threads even less fun than usual.

It's almost a chore having to read through these things now with all the damn unwarranted negativity.

Unwarranted? The whole motorsport world is crumbling at the very heart.....

Not sure I could take seeing the world through FF's eyes


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[joeb]

I would just like to remind everybody that the forum has an "Ignore" function. Instructions on how to ignore a user can be found in the FAQ and I copied that section below:

Can I block posts, emails and messages from specific users?

If there are particular members that bother you and you do not want to see their posts or receive Private Messages and Emails from them, then you can add these members to your 'Ignore List'. There are several ways to do this:

Through your User Control Panel: User CP, Settings & Options, Edit Ignore List. Then, type their name into the empty text box and click 'Okay'.