[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

He is a very experienced F1 driver. It wasn't his first dalliance with a damp and greasy track. He also has a tongue in his head. If he thought it was a stupid decision to go out then he should have said so..... but maybe he did and he was forced to go out.....

I had a feed from one of the many fan sites pop up on my phone feed the evening after I write that comment and Horner in answer to questions about the Perez performance in the race basically said that it was a team decision to see if they could elevate him into a point scoring position.

He was right when he said that if the rain had stayed and Perez had a leap on the rest of the field it would have looked like a brilliant decision, but it didn't, so it wasn't.

But he also batted away, under questioning, the idea of the Lawson run on Thursday being a test for replacing Perez. He indicated that Perez was staying as the performance was a result of team decisions, and that the Lawson run had been planned for months and was a filming event.
He also mentioned that he was having a run in an RB8 on Thursday (but that wouldn't mean he'd be lining himself up to replace anyone....)

All of this basically goes to show that much of the fan site click baiting is just speculative nonsense to raise the fan site click on numbers and none of has much substance.
The teams know what is going on in their own environments and have the data and knowledge to support their decisions.
The fan sites and keyboard warriors don't, and few of them seem do much analysis of what really happened in any particular circumstance.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Of course it was a mistake. He didn't spin on purpose.

Once he was destined to be on the back row, or the pit lane, he was always going to be the guinea pig for Max's tyre strategy. There is nothing more certain, or makes more sense for Red Bull.

In a perfect race, he may finish P9, or he can be used as a test car for the conditions to enable Max to finish higher, which as it went, happened.

All of the above, caused by Perez spinning off in qualifying.

I wouldn't have put him out on the slick so soon, and the commentary as we watched the in car video commentary noted it was a vicious snap that put him off the very narrow then appearing dry line onto a relatively wet section of the track.

His chances of actually catching the snap on the wet section was almost zero and once on the wet grass going backwards he had no show of escaping.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I had a feed from one of the many fan sites pop up on my phone feed the evening after I write that comment and Horner in answer to questions about the Perez performance in the race basically said that it was a team decision to see if they could elevate him into a point scoring position.

As mentioned by me and others in this thread, risky strategy calls are required when you have a car that is buried deep in the field. Why is that car so deep in the field?

Originally Posted by Teretonga

But he also batted away, under questioning, the idea of the Lawson run on Thursday being a test for replacing Perez. He indicated that Perez was staying as the performance was a result of team decisions, and that the Lawson run had been planned for months and was a filming event.
He also mentioned that he was having a run in an RB8 on Thursday (but that wouldn't mean he'd be lining himself up to replace anyone....)

I can imagine the filming session was planned in advance. It likely is a coincidence of timing. However, I do like that Horner said that because he was going to be in an older car that this means there is no chance that they will be looking at Lawson's performance in the current car. I mean lets face it there is no difference between Horner and Lawson. You can't imagine the team might treat their future prospects differently? I mean one is a the TP who is likely enjoying a "for fun" or "vanity" run in an older car and their promising reserve driver in the current car. It's clearly the same situation for both. I am 100% sure no data will be captured or examined from Lawson's laps.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

All of this basically goes to show that much of the fan site click baiting is just speculative nonsense to raise the fan site click on numbers and none of has much substance.
The teams know what is going on in their own environments and have the data and knowledge to support their decisions.
The fan sites and keyboard warriors don't, and few of them seem do much analysis of what really happened in any particular circumstance.

Does it really show anything? The F1 media (or click bait sites as you say) may very well be pumping this story up. Or not. You can legitimately read what is going on multiple ways. And as to Horner deflecting attention regarding Perez's seat. What do you expect him to do when questioned? Break down crying and admit that yes, Perez is on the way out? It is likely to remain denials (well Marko has a history of letting the unfiltered comment fly) until the moment Perez is gone. I say this without having any clue what is going on. Is Perez being sacked soon or is he going to be renewed again after his two year extension is up? Who knows? But given his performance (and you can only pretty it up so much and blame only so much on the team), he is stinking it up right now. So the buzz will continue. It would be insane not to expect it to continue. Frankly it would be insane for the team to support him indefinitely. He needs to flips things around now. No doubt he is trying, but it's likely all in his head at this point. He has the racing version of the "Yips". And even if he removes himself from the current slump, how long until he falls into another one. It seems to be a pattern for him now.

All of this "We need to help/support Perez" talk is something you use with an F1 rookie who is learning and building confidence not a driver with over a decade of F1 experience and six wins! This might be seen as overly harsh talk, but come on, this is F1. This is a top team. The situation existing this long is just astounding to me.

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I wouldn't have put him out on the slick so soon, and the commentary as we watched the in car video commentary noted it was a vicious snap that put him off the very narrow then appearing dry line onto a relatively wet section of the track.

His chances of actually catching the snap on the wet section was almost zero and once on the wet grass going backwards he had no show of escaping.

You are right. It very well may have been an unrecoverable snap. It really can happen to anyone. It just seems so odd that Perez is having so much bad luck these days. What might be the common denominator here?

Richard

[S griffin]

Perez was always going to struggle, the qualifying incident made it worse. Max was lucky he could keep it going in qualifying and as a result got a podium. Perez made no progress, but I couldn't see him doing that anyway

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I wouldn't have put him out on the slick so soon, and the commentary as we watched the in car video commentary noted it was a vicious snap that put him off the very narrow then appearing dry line onto a relatively wet section of the track.

His chances of actually catching the snap on the wet section was almost zero and once on the wet grass going backwards he had no show of escaping.

There is no grass at Copse. He went across the tarmac run-off then wound on some extra lock as he approached the gravel, which spun him round so he went into the gravel backwards. Max went off at the same place and did the same thing up to the last bit of tarmac. But then he chose to scrub off the rest of the speed by going forwards across the gravel and then driving round the back edge of the gravel back onto the track. It gave his floor a good shot-blasting but he survived. Danny Pic also went off there but kept the car going straight and went nowhere near the gravel.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

There is no grass at Copse. He went across the tarmac run-off then wound on some extra lock as he approached the gravel, which spun him round so he went into the gravel backwards. Max went off at the same place and did the same thing up to the last bit of tarmac. But then he chose to scrub off the rest of the speed by going forwards across the gravel and then driving round the back edge of the gravel back onto the track. It gave his floor a good shot-blasting but he survived. Danny Pic also went off there but kept the car going straight and went nowhere near the gravel.

He goes over a strip of grass just before the run off area.

Time: 3:22

https://youtu.be/zUwoS_VqVho?si=np_v8n1lzrFyjM9O

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard C

...risky strategy calls are required when you have a car that is buried deep in the field...

taking this bit somewhat out of context...

for the last few seasons, a RB starting at the back would by the first round of stops be filtering out into the midfield and by the next stop would be well into a points scoring position. and if it was Max he would finish easily on the podium, win even, and Perez up there or close enough to it.

such was the pace advantage they enjoyed and had no need for risky strategies in these situations.

this season, they dont have that advantage (although we havent yet seen Max start from the back). the grid seems to much closer and quali/start position so much more important this year.

for sure this doesnt take Perez off the hook but for whatever reasons, RB are also slipping.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

taking this bit somewhat out of context...

for the last few seasons, a RB starting at the back would by the first round of stops be filtering out into the midfield and by the next stop would be well into a points scoring position. and if it was Max he would finish easily on the podium, win even, and Perez up there or close enough to it.

such was the pace advantage they enjoyed and had no need for risky strategies in these situations.

this season, they dont have that advantage (although we havent yet seen Max start from the back). the grid seems to much closer and quali/start position so much more important this year.

for sure this doesnt take Perez off the hook but for whatever reasons, RB are also slipping.

I can agree with all of this. I think previously the RB car was so far ahead and then add in Max it was mostly him cruising to victory and winning 19 races last season. Perez was second in the championship, so many can say "What else could Perez have done?" But when you look at his performance relative to Max (some last year, but more so this year) you see he is much more inconsistent with respect to his finishing position. IMHO the car carried him to his 2nd place in the WDC last year. As everyone else is now catching up up to Max and RB (I think RB had an edge at the start of the season, but it has been steadily eroded away), Perez is slowly sinking deeper into the field. So yes, the job is much harder for Max and Perez these days and we see it in things like tough clashes between Max and Lando and Perez hanging around at the bottom half of the top 10 (at least recently)

Richard

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Richard C

I can agree with all of this. I think previously the RB car was so far ahead and then add in Max it was mostly him cruising to victory and winning 19 races last season. Perez was second in the championship, so many can say "What else could Perez have done?" But when you look at his performance relative to Max (some last year, but more so this year) you see he is much more inconsistent with respect to his finishing position. IMHO the car carried him to his 2nd place in the WDC last year. As everyone else is now catching up up to Max and RB (I think RB had an edge at the start of the season, but it has been steadily eroded away), Perez is slowly sinking deeper into the field. So yes, the job is much harder for Max and Perez these days and we see it in things like tough clashes between Max and Lando and Perez hanging around at the bottom half of the top 10 (at least recently)

Richard

Agreed.
Max is good, but how much faster is he, than Hamilton, Sainz Leclerc, Norris, Piastri, Russell. Alonso.
How much did a super car elevate him to such a dominant position? To some degree for sure, but his overall composure and pace and consistency would put him as certainly one of the top 3.
Hamilton had his critics in the last regulations, 'because he had a superior car' but the driver still has to maximize that advantage and be consistently quick enough and composed enough to see off other challenges from drivers and conditions, just as he did at Silverstone.

With the convergence we saw at Silverstone what we appear to have is three or four teams all in a very close group with a couple of pretenders pushing very close.
So McLaren, RBR, Mercedes and Ferrari are in that group with Aston Martin and now Haas appearing to pick up the ball and run with them.

And when you look at the driver line ups then Perez is going to struggle to be a front runner or close to the podium given the fact the RB20 is not superior to others, and the drivers are more than his equal.
Expectations he will consistently be a place behind Max are not realistic.

But he doesn't need to be.
RBR are 78 points ahead of Mclaren in the constructor's championship.
Even if max was to win every race for the rest of the year and McLaren filled out the podium in every race, if Perez averaged 7th across the rest of the season and brough home 4 points a race Mclaren would only be scoring an extra two points a race.

The scenario may not be realistically probable, but it does help understand the mathematics. It would take Mclaren 39 races to close the gap (not including the sprints).
So, 12 more races this year, 24 next year, and the first 3 races of the 2026 calendar. to get even with RBR. (average RBR 29 points to McLaren 31 points so 2 points per race)

Obviously, the results will not track that way but the idea that RBR is going to lose the Constructors title if Perez doesn't start finishing on the podium is simply not correct.

He doesn't need to finish on the podium to guarantee the title.
If he finishes in the bottom half of the ten on a consistent basis the title will be RBR's unless one of the other three top teams scores multiple 1-2 finishes
and RBR and Max drop the ball.
That scenario (RBR dropping the ball) is not that likely but if it does happen, that is competition, which is what F1 is about and what we all want.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

There is no grass at Copse. He went across the tarmac run-off then wound on some extra lock as he approached the gravel, which spun him round so he went into the gravel backwards. Max went off at the same place and did the same thing up to the last bit of tarmac. But then he chose to scrub off the rest of the speed by going forwards across the gravel and then driving round the back edge of the gravel back onto the track. It gave his floor a good shot-blasting but he survived. Danny Pic also went off there but kept the car going straight and went nowhere near the gravel.

Perez incident was different circumstance from the other two you mentioned and in more difficult conditions, so I regard it as apples for apples.
Gary Anderson was out watching car behaviour in the session where Yuki spun off in front of him and made the comment that the present cars are very difficult to catch once they have started to swing out because of the pendulum effect which is the result of a tightly mandated weight distribution in the technical regulation.

I wasn't aware of this until he mentioned it, but it is in the regulations and helps explain why we sometimes see drivers sometimes unable to counteract oversteer that we would have expected them to actually catch.

His comments are in here:
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/m...kside-verdict/

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Perez incident was different circumstance from the other two you mentioned and in more difficult conditions, so I regard it as apples for apples.
Gary Anderson was out watching car behaviour in the session where Yuki spun off in front of him and made the comment that the present cars are very difficult to catch once they have started to swing out because of the pendulum effect which is the result of a tightly mandated weight distribution in the technical regulation.

I wasn't aware of this until he mentioned it, but it is in the regulations and helps explain why we sometimes see drivers sometimes unable to counteract oversteer that we would have expected them to actually catch.

His comments are in here:
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/m...kside-verdict/

So why was Perez the only one to properly bin it in qualyfing then?

There's a common denominator that no amount of gymnastics can discount, and that denominator has been outqualified by Logan Sargeant in a Williams 7-5.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

He goes over a strip of grass just before the run off area.

Time: 3:22

https://youtu.be/zUwoS_VqVho?si=np_v8n1lzrFyjM9O

As 'strips' of grass go, that's about as minimal as you can get!

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Skam85

So why was Perez the only one to properly bin it in qualyfing then?

There's a common denominator that no amount of gymnastics can discount, and that denominator has been outqualified by Logan Sargeant in a Williams 7-5.

SCOOP: Logan Sargeant to Red Bull!!

[ChrisA]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

SCOOP: Logan Sargeant to Red Bull!!

WHAT!!! Don't believe that. I hope RB have a big budget for repairs.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

He goes over a strip of grass just before the run off area.

Time: 3:22

https://youtu.be/zUwoS_VqVho?si=np_v8n1lzrFyjM9O

It's a very narrow strip of grass and the car continues straight nearly all the way across the tarmac run-off. It's just before the gravel that he tries to tighten his line and spins. The grass had no impact on the incident.

[Sodemo]

To be honest, id rather see grass line the whole edge of the circuit and be at least 3 metres wide before any gravel or tarmac.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

To be honest, id rather see grass line the whole edge of the circuit and be at least 3 metres wide before any gravel or tarmac.

Me too, but let's not get over-excited about what benefit it would bring. In dry conditions it would be easily possible to drop a wheel onto the grass without suffering any serious disadvantage.

[billy bleach]

Fair play to Redbull F1. Getting that many cars all running at the same time at Goodwood was an impressive effort.

[Richard C]

https://www.racefans.net/2024/07/24/...fore-f1-races/

Max agrees to not stay up late doing sim-racing prior to F1 races. I appreciate that he is deeply involved in racing (be it F1 or sim racing), but I can imagine his lack of sleep might have been one factor in his "thin skin" last weekend as the article calls out.

Richard

[Sandgroper]

Surely its no come down to this. Perez will place this weekend and this will all calm down.

https://speedcafe.com/ricciardo-set-...gainst-lawson/

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Surely its no come down to this. Perez will place this weekend and this will all calm down.

https://speedcafe.com/ricciardo-set-...gainst-lawson/

I mean it's all speculation, but IMHO the expectations that Perez is seriously at risk of losing is ride would seem wrong if not true. A few logic flaws in narratives seem to confuse me...

1. Perez has a good race, therefor his seat is safe for the remainder of the season.

[How does this make any sense. He has been hot and cold for years in which he drops into multi-race slumps. Why should a potential end to a slump by a good Spa race indicate anything other than a "potential end of a slump" and nothing more?]

2. Regarding DR taking Perez's seat.

[This is more logic like the first issue. We are going to replace a driver that has performed in the past, but has a recent history of decline with... a driver that has performed in the past, but has a recent history of decline.]

I mean Red Bull has twisted themselves into knots over this. It's simple. Drop Perez and find either...

A. An existing driver who is not on decline (Sainz?)
B. Promote a younger driver from within and see what happens?

The first option is probably much harder now, so go with the second. They have multiple options here...

1. Promote Yuki. Pair Liam with Daniel to see if Yuki can deliver, and if not, who is the better of Liam and Daniel if you need to quickly replace Yuki.
2. Promote Liam. Continue with Yuki and Daniel and make a firm decision on who to promote if Liam doesn't work out.
3. Promote Daniel. Which clearly I think would be the wrong thing to do. However sadly, I suspect even Daniel would be an improvement upon Perez, but still not a good long term #2 in that team.

Whoever is promoted is on a tight leash and might be replaced mid-year if they can't at least show some promise. Is this a pressure cooker situation for whoever gets promoted? Is this Red Bull of old in which drivers get thrown into the deep end and sink or swim? Yes to both. But frankly it can't be worse than what we are watching now. Even if Perez wins the race tomorrow, will doubts go away? Would anyone be surprised if he goes out in Q3 in the next race? I don't think they would.

Richard

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Surely its no come down to this. Perez will place this weekend and this will all calm down.

https://speedcafe.com/ricciardo-set-...gainst-lawson/

Perez needs to deliver today. If you speak to people from Red Bull management, you can see them starting to come to the conclusion that 2025 might well look like Verstappen/Tsunoda with Lawson/Hadjar at the junior team, and (the second coming as they see it) Lindblad waiting in the wings.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Sandgroper

Surely its no come down to this. Perez will place this weekend and this will all calm down.

https://speedcafe.com/ricciardo-set-...gainst-lawson/

Matt Coch has been writing complete drivel all year.Writing based on his passport and not the facts.
Try and find a non Australian journalist who does the constant Ricciardo boosting that he does.It is embarrassing.

[bathurst77]

Max starts 11 finishes 5
Checo starts 2 finishes 8
Not helping his own case.

[bathurst77]

RB has a real problem with both their 2nd seats.
DR seems to be on the verge of driving checos car...
or on the verge of driving the team bus, depending on who you ask what day.

Between those two drivers, surely there has to be a time when someone gives lawson the nod,
But in which car? Put dan in checos car and, lawson in dan's?
Giving Lawson a chance to actually race a few rounds with less expectations and Danny 1 last chance to prove himself.
After a few races, they would know enough to decide who deserves what drive for the rest of this year and next.

But what of Yuki? Why not put him in Checos car and make RB "Team Anzac"?