LMP2 Manufacturers and Engine Suppliers

[Rodger Davies]

Oh yeah, sorry, I meant Dome instead of Gibson.

I know the Oreca/Alpine and Ligier/Morgan discrepancies, but still struggling to work out the '5' and I assume the organisers will happily support the illusion that they're different manufacturers if they have a different badge.

[MagVanisher]

Did I heard about having 5 LMP2 constructors in the future, or it's just this year's WEC season?

At the end of the day, it'll be Onroak, Oreca, and two (or three) other constructors would benefit on supplying their cars to that class!

[Bob Baldwin]

I realize that most of the LMP2 builders are built out of Europe BUT you have to add Reily Technology to the list based out of USA . I seem to recall ACO wanted a USA presence and unless something radically changes I am quite sure it will be Reily

[EricS]

P2 regs meeting canceled. What could that mean?http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...cancelled.html

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by EricS

P2 regs meeting canceled.

Here's me hoping they finally listened to the whole of their involved parties, not only some manufacturers and two specific constructors...

[Maelochs]

Obviously they are turning the P2 regs discussion over to the people who handled the GTE/GT3 merger.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Obviously they are turning the P2 regs discussion over to the people who handled the GTE/GT3 merger.

Ha!

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by EricS

P2 regs meeting canceled. What could that mean?http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...cancelled.html

While the single engine manufacturer is already set in stone, I don't think the FIA/ACO will not give up on limiting the chassis constructors to just 4 firms.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by MagVanisher

While the single engine manufacturer is already set in stone, I don't think the FIA/ACO will not give up on limiting the chassis constructors to just 4 firms.

Just for my understanding, are you saing that you think the FIA/ACO will give up on limiting to just 4?

[EricS]

Here's the latest: http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...finalised.html

[BrentJackson]

This part of that release shows what a bunch of bullcrap this whole idea is and remains:

Twenty-one engine manufacturers were consulted about the best way to reduce costs and the universal opinion was that the only effective way forward was to have a single supplier. This was recently announced by the World Motorsport Council and the tender process for this will begin in the summer.

21 engine manufacturers were consulted and they all thought the best way forward to reduce costs was to have a single supplier to a worldwide category?

Do the PR guys at the ACO read their bloody releases before they go out, or what? Nobody on Earth who knows anything about motorsport reads that line and believes it.

We are also pursuing this same economy of scale for the electronics (unique equipment) and chassis (a limited number of constructors) while being careful to keep the variety of different cars which is so important for our fans.

Spec engines and limited to a handful of chosen chassis builders, but they are "being careful to keep the variety of different cars which is so important for our fans"?

Memo to the ACO: bald-faced lying to your fanbase doesn't exactly endear you to anyone involved the sport. Just do a favor and tell us that the whole point of this is to benefit Oreca, Onroak and VAG. You'll be telling us what we all already know, and you won't be embarrassing yourself at the same time.

[TF110]

Where are those non-Nissan powered lmp2's? ESM is one of the only recognizable teams running some other engine. Imo, its dumb, but its not a huge change from what we currently have, sadly.

[BrentJackson]

Originally Posted by TF110

Where are those non-Nissan powered lmp2's? ESM is one of the only recognizable teams running some other engine. Imo, its dumb, but its not a huge change from what we currently have, sadly.

True, but why would you specifically limit yourself? I doubt it'll do much to help costs unless you get a screaming deal on the engines. At least give guys the chance to do it themselves if they want to.

[Pontlieue]

Originally Posted by TF110

Where are those non-Nissan powered lmp2's? ESM is one of the only recognizable teams running some other engine. Imo, its dumb, but its not a huge change from what we currently have, sadly.

Krohn and Morand are using Judd engines, ESM, Shank and one of the OAK Ligiers are using HPD engines, and Speedsource are using Mazda engines. Apart from that it's all Nissan engines I think.

[TF110]

Tusc said open engines are fine. Morand SARD are trying for lmp1. The others will probably just switch to the spec engine no issue if they want to run elms or wec. Not that I like this idea, but its not a huge departure from the present.

[Bob Baldwin]

Definition of Competition

ACO : Single Source of Engine Supplier
Limited Supplier of Chassis and Body Parts

Fans : WTF :

Come race in the USA at least we have Options

[TRspitfirefan]

IMO, There is a very big difference between nearly every car running one brand of engine (or tire) by choice and rules allowing only one brand.
It is the difference between a sporting competition and just entertainment.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Bob Baldwin

Definition of Competition

ACO : Single Source of Engine Supplier
Limited Supplier of Chassis and Body Parts

Fans : WTF :

Come race in the USA at least we have Options

Atherton was quoted in a article on either Racer or SC365. In it, He stated that IMSA is totally on board with the concept of limiting chassis manufacturers to the FIA/ACO's chosen four. While it is true that IMSA will likely allow a few more engine options and also allow some manufacturer "decorations", In my opinion that is simply not good enough.
A protoype class should feature a set of regulation. Anyone who wants to accept the challenge, should be free to design a racing machine in accordance with those rules. Sports car racing when it is at its finest, is all about the cars. If you take away the freedom to design the next generation of legendary sports racing cars, then we will never again have any legendary sports car racing series. Do you think that anyone would remember the grand old days of the CAN-AM, or the fantastic GTP era if not for the awesome machines that defined those era's?
It may be true that free and open racing competition is never financially sustainable, but I'd rather have a few great years of fantastic racing, than 50 seasons of mediocrity.

[Maelochs]

Let's break it down:

"Twenty-one engine manufacturers were consulted about the best way to reduce costs and the universal opinion was that the only effective way forward was to have a single supplier."

Translation: "Of the 21 engine manufacturers we queried, only one was willing to both pay the entry fee and lease the engines for the paltry sums we proposed."

"We are also pursuing this same economy of scale for the electronics (unique equipment) and chassis (a limited number of constructors) while being careful to keep the variety of different cars which is so important for our fans."

One way to make this work without shutting out any real contenders would be to mandate that every manufacturer commit to preparing X number of rolling chassis—say four or five—and have to have at least three ready to roll at some date before the first race, and the next two needing to be ready by the start of the next season.

If a manufacturer cannot sell five cars, it could still hope to use the remaining chassis over the next five or six years as spare and replacements, and could possibly sell some if the chassis proved to be particularly good.

This would rule out people like SMP who plan to spend basically unlimited amounts on chassis just for its own team unless SMP or whoever was willing, and capitalized to actually build five cars. Really small firms would get squeezed out, sadly, but how many "small firms" can even afford to design a decent P2 chassis?

Gibson (Zytek) proved its worth with its old design, as the DSC article notes. Oreca and Oak are in for sure no matter what—and they should be. Dome might get lost ... but seriously, was its car ever anywhere near the cost cap? (were any of the current P2 coupes, for that matter?)

The five points:
• 1. A better car for a lower budget——"We want more for less." And at the same FIA time wants:
• 3. A proper business model to build and run cars in LM P2——So ... you want the manufacturers to build better cars for less money and also make more money. That is some superb math, but it relies on imaginary numbers, and I don't mean the root of minus one.

• 2. Fair and close competition——Well, doesn't that have to do entirely with the teams and manufacturers? Isn't that how Racing works? If a manufacturer builds a crappy car or a really good one, if a team hires good drivers and crew ... or If Not. Make the rules, and see what you get. If the cars are within the rules, then it is fair competition.

As for close competition ... close to What? Unless the FIA plans to equalize cars artificially ... which is Crap. Imagine if your favorite football star had to play wearing leg weights because he was too quick and 'competition" wasn't close? What total BS.

You want to lose the fans, FIA? Keep playing that NASCAR crap.

• 4. Protection from unfair competition or technology——Which is what Rules are for. You make good rules, and builders make good cars, and good teams driver them, right? Stuff that isn't allowed by the rules is unfair. Pretty simple.

Of course, what FIA really wants is to stifle innovation. They don't want a smarter designer to build a better car and dominate the series ... but ... That is Competition. Anything else is Not.

Again, imagine of your favorite football team was not allowed to draw up plays which maximized on the weakness of its opponents? Total BS. Smarter is better, and better is supposed to win.

• 5. A universal category allowing teams to run an LM P2 car in the Asian Le Mans Series, in the European Le Mans Series and in the TUDOR United Sports Car Championship, with some specific exceptions required by IMSA, and on the world stage in the WEC and at the 24 Heures du Mans.——Sure why not totally ignore the fact that each of those series is a completely different entity with different requirements.

I am Totally behind this idea—it makes a ton of sense, If It Is Done Right. If FIA goes for the lowest common denominator, that's what it gets ... the worst thing possible.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

A protoype class should feature a set of regulation. Anyone who wants to accept the challenge, should be free to design a racing machine in accordance with those rules.

We do have to keep in mind that for FIA, LMP2 is a secondary class, just for rich amateurs.

There is a prototype class pretty close to what you describe--in WEC. Nowhere else, sadly.

But for P2 to function financially, it needs to have some cost containment. I am sure we would rather have today's grids with today's cars, than a grid of one or two really cool small prototypes (P675-types.) We would prefer today's grids because otherwise, the class would go away. It happened to P1 in ALMS.

I understand that LMP2 has to be fairly cheap. Like yourself, I also understand that it has to be exciting to the fans. it is a tough balance.

As TF110 says, How many people aren't already running a Nissan V8? I wish more teams found affordable options but most teams want to go for the cheap, simple, reliable Nissan unit. (Sorry, I see Pontlieue has already addressed this: "Krohn and Morand are using Judd engines, ESM, Shank and one of the OAK Ligiers are using HPD engines, and Speedsource are using Mazda engines."

I'd love it if something like the Judd, the Honda, and the Nissan were all allowed, with a very tight cost limit so teams really did have a choice.

As I understand it right now the Nissan is the best deal, the Honda is expensive, and the Judd is a liter less in displacement and would need BoP ... and we All love Bop ...

I wish I had The Answer ... Sadly, I know most of us already have better answers than FIA.

[Bob Baldwin]

Maelochs : You Nailed it . Well Said Sir !!

[Dyson Mazda]

Originally Posted by Bob Baldwin

Maelochs : You Nailed it . Well Said Sir !!

He usually does. He is definitely understands how sports car racing works in the "real world."

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

As I understand it right now the Nissan is the best deal, the Honda is expensive, and the Judd is a liter less in displacement and would need BoP ... and we All love Bop ...

While there's a chance that Nissan will get that spot as the single engine provider for LMP2 (sans TUSC), I feel that Volkswagen will take over.

For some reason, I wish that they use Formula Three when it comes to engines. If not, they should just have another supplier should Nissan or Volkswagen take it first.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

We do have to keep in mind that for FIA, LMP2 is a secondary class, just for rich amateurs.

I was mostly referring to the situation in the US series, where the new LMP2 is set to become the Premier class.

There is a prototype class pretty close to what you describe--in WEC. Nowhere else, sadly.

But for P2 to function financially, it needs to have some cost containment......


......I understand that LMP2 has to be fairly cheap. Like yourself, I also understand that it has to be exciting to the fans. it is a tough balance.

I'm not even asking for LMP1 back. All I'm suggesting is that LMP2 regs should retain some of the freedom that the current class has.

I am sure we would rather have today's grids with today's cars, than a grid of one or two really cool small prototypes (P675-types.) We would prefer today's grids because otherwise, the class would go away. It happened to P1 in ALMS.

HA! I wouldn't bet on that.
Also the ALMS still had two P1 cars, even at the end, plus four LMP2s.

As TF110 says, How many people aren't already running a Nissan V8? I wish more teams found affordable options but most teams want to go for the cheap, simple, reliable Nissan unit. (Sorry, I see Pontlieue has already addressed this: "Krohn and Morand are using Judd engines, ESM, Shank and one of the OAK Ligiers are using HPD engines, and Speedsource are using Mazda engines."

IMO, There is a very big difference between nearly every car running one brand of engine (or tire) by choice and rules allowing only one brand.
It is the difference between a sporting competition and just entertainment.

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda

He usually does. He is definitely understands how sports car racing works in the "real world."