[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[E.B]

How many last chances does Danny need?

[bathurst77]

well...
Yuki beside max
checo with lawson in team b
danny on the bus?

Still a game of musical chairs with 2 underperforming drivers and a very promising young guy who needs to be given a chance

[S griffin]

Can't see Yuki getting the seat. Checo needs to leave, he's getting too stale here. So few options for Ricciardo. Can see quite a few changes for 2025

[Plantagenet]

Only 2 months from re-signing his contract (and I therefore assumed had put to bed the RB 2nd driver issue for now), there now seems universal acceptance from the press that Perez will loose his seat.
Can I be dim, but what has materially changed since he re-signed the contract. His performances haven't improved, but nor do I feel that they are any worse than the some of the earlier races in 24'. If anything, at least at Spa he was enough in the mix to help his teammate. do
Perez presumably will very handsomely from having his contract terminated so soon - I know hindsight is wonderful, but he clearly wasn't where he needed to be when they signed it and it's a poor decision from the RB management.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

Only 2 months from re-signing his contract (and I therefore assumed had put to bed the RB 2nd driver issue for now), there now seems universal acceptance from the press that Perez will loose his seat.
Can I be dim, but what has materially changed since he re-signed the contract. His performances haven't improved, but nor do I feel that they are any worse than the some of the earlier races in 24'. If anything, at least at Spa he was enough in the mix to help his teammate. do
Perez presumably will very handsomely from having his contract terminated so soon - I know hindsight is wonderful, but he clearly wasn't where he needed to be when they signed it and it's a poor decision from the RB management.

I have read a story somewhere (who knows if it's accurate) that part of why Red Bull signed him was to help remove pressure upon him as an aid to help him recover his prior form. At the same time it's reported that performance clauses exist that allows for early termination. I expect Perez would get some type of compensation if/when he leaves,, but not a large windfall as you suppose.

Richard

[GTRMagic]

Perez Stays At Oracle Red Bull Racing For 2024

Seriously…?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Perez Stays At Oracle Red Bull Racing For 2024

Seriously…?

Indeed. Someone who has about half the points of their team mate should probably be sacked, rather than promoted.

[v8supes]

Super Sergios sensational come back. What a warrior.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Indeed. Someone who has about half the points of their team mate should probably be sacked, rather than promoted.

It’s less than half..

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

It’s less than half..

I said "about". Not exactly, or more, or less.

What is this maths?

133 is 47% of 277. Last year it was 49.57%.

If you're scoring 40-55% of your team mates points, it's not really good enough.

[Richard C]

I did some super quick points analysis between 2023 and 2024. For expediency, I only focused on GP race finishes and didn't include any other points (fastest lap, sprint race). Schedules are different as well (given my Belgium split). Given how quickly I pulled this together, I may have made mistakes.

2023
Up to Belgium GP: Max - 286, Sergio - 174 (Sergio 60.8% of Max)
After Belgium GP: Max - 235, Sergio - 86 (Sergio 36.6% of Max)
ALL GP: Max - 521, Sergio - 260 (Sergio 49.9% of Max)

2024
Up to Belgium GP: Max - 251, Sergio - 117 (Sergio 46.6% of Max)

In short Sergio was much more erratic in second half of 2023 and that has carried over into first half of 2024.

I don't know what to say about them keeping Perez other than the talk will continue. It would have to be miserable for Perez and IMHO given the issue is all in his head, it's pressure that is likely to cause more misfortune for him.

Last half of the year will be interesting. What happens if he improves on average, but still is erratic in general? I anticipate more hand wringing and indecision at Red Bull for 2025. Maybe if he doesn't improve and they lose the WCC they "might" make a change. I do feel something is odd and illogical with their decision making processes. Makes you wonder what is going on internally.

Richard

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I said "about". Not exactly, or more, or less.

What is this maths?

133 is 47% of 277. Last year it was 49.57%.

If you're scoring 40-55% of your team mates points, it's not really good enough.

Really?
If Max finished most of his races in 2023 so in those terms as lead driver he should be winning every race, right?
14 races at 24 points a race would be 350 points.
He has 275 so that's 78.57% of the possible points.

Perez is the second driver so that means he should be finishing second in every race. He can't win them if Max is winning them, especially in a team tat is so focused on the lead driver.
So realistically his goal is to score 14x18 points and that is 252 points.

He has scored 129 or a mere 51.19% of what he would have scored if he was second in every race.

And we know that Red Bull no longer has the dominant car, so how realistic is that goal when in the last two races Max has managed two fifths on the road, and Perez has managed a seventh and an eighth on the road, plus a fastest lap.
So Perz has scored 11 points in the last two races and Max has a fourth and a fifth or 22 points. So Perez has scored half as many as Max over the last two races or 1/3rd of the total points scored by the team.

The other problem that has come up in several races this year is his strategy.
That is not his choosing, that is the strategy that the team has put him on, the timing of his tyre changes etc, and even the set up of the car in some things.

British GP he had a rubbish strategy as the team used him to check on how effective changing Max to hards would be and at Spa, the timing of his stops was ridiculous often putting him at a disadvantage to other driver or releasing him into situations where he would get stuck behind others and couldn't pass.
Why not? Because he was on a similar set up to Max with large wing, high drag, configuration and everyone learnt at spa that their aero set ups compromised their ability to overtake. Following with a second or so behind another car made overtaking very difficult and the DRS zones?
One of them had been shortened by 75m.
So everyone was compromised.
To expect Perez to even maintain his grid spot with a car that was aerodynamically carrying high downforce on a track like Spa in dry conditions is stupid.
And if you compromise his tyre stops badly then its hard to blame him for his overall result.

He finished just over 43 seconds behind George, but did two extra pit stops and that would add at least 38 seconds to his race time.
If you take the 43.295 seconds behind George and deduct 38 seconds from that gap he was only 5 or six seconds behind George on race pace.

Sainz was on 2 seconds ahead of him when he was called in for the third stop and that was because he was 24 seconds up on Alonso and had the time to stop, put on a new set and continue to seek a fastest lap.
If he was as useless as what some people say he wouldn't have been able to do a fastest lap.

And the other factor that really puts the whole issue on edge is there is no guarantee that if they replaced Perez with Lawson or Ricciardo and messed them around the way they have messed Perez around from race to race, they wouldn't be any better off, maybe worse off, and that would leave them with a lot of egg on their face.

Destroy one driver's career and substitute someone else who isn't any better, or even worse in results.

Realistically they probably will not keep the constructors title because other teams are doing a better job and they RB20 has some compromising issues to be dealt with.
If they get a fix then it may be enough to lift their performance and get the WCC. Max has enough buffer to win the drivers unless he throws irt all away but the team has tp also do everything it can to ensure Perez gets a good shake in strategy and systems in each race.

It's in their interests to do so, and gaslighting Perez as the reason for their failure to keep the WCC is wrong.

It's a team issue and they whole team needs to work as a team.
If Jos V was correct about the wheels coming off RBR, then how they work as a team over the next ten events will be their very public test on how well knit the team really is.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

It’s less than half..

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I said "about". Not exactly, or more, or less.

What is this maths?

Joe's post is slightly inaccurate. It should read 33% of Red Bull's total for 2023, and 32% of the team's total in 2024.

[GTRMagic]

Riccardo Keeps RB Seat After Summer Break

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Really? If Max finished most of his races in 2023 so in those terms as lead driver he should be winning every race, right?
14 races at 24 points a race would be 350 points. He has 275 so that's 78.57% of the possible points.
Perez is the second driver so that means he should be finishing second in every race. He can't win them if Max is winning them, especially in a team tat is so focused on the lead driver.
So realistically his goal is to score 14x18 points and that is 252 points.
He has scored 129 or a mere 51.19% of what he would have scored if he was second in every race.
And we know that Red Bull no longer has the dominant car, so how realistic is that goal when in the last two races Max has managed two fifths on the road, and Perez has managed a seventh and an eighth on the road, plus a fastest lap.
So Perz has scored 11 points in the last two races and Max has a fourth and a fifth or 22 points. So Perez has scored half as many as Max over the last two races or 1/3rd of the total points scored by the team.
The other problem that has come up in several races this year is his strategy.
That is not his choosing, that is the strategy that the team has put him on, the timing of his tyre changes etc, and even the set up of the car in some things.
It's in their interests to do so, and gaslighting Perez as the reason for their failure to keep the WCC is wrong.

Good comments you are making there.
Looking at points between team mates is difficult owing to the larger differentials up at the sharp end. In a 1-2 situation (or 2-1 in McLaren's case!) 2nd only gets 72% of the winner. In a 4-5 situation 5th gets 83.3% of 4th which makes the second driver here look better than the guy who came second in the race.
Perhaps the better comparison between team mates is how they compare this season compared to last season.
I like Perez and it seems he is happy to be used as a test pilot for strategies for Max to benefit from. His continuing presence in the team does not surprise me. Having said that I do think he has to up his qualifying game.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Riccardo Keeps RB Seat After Summer Break

I feel sorry for Lawson.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by E.B

I feel sorry for Lawson.

Presumably behind the scenes, Lawson has been told that they will decide whether or not to put him in one of the 2025 Cash Cows for next year before the end of the season or he will be free to go elsewhere.

Nah, I think Liam Liam has to take his future into his own hands now and say come on Audi i'm your man.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Joe's post is slightly inaccurate. It should read 33% of Red Bull's total for 2023, and 32% of the team's total in 2024.

By "slightly inaccurate", you mean "completely wrong" lol.

[chillibowl]

i think im cynical on this in a different way...and in a way that oddly supports their decision.

i think Perez retention/2nd seat stories make for a great distraction to RBs declining form and early season controversies and i question their ability or desire to focus on and provide support to both seats equally. less so if that 2nd seat requires more support than Perez does and/or if it comes at the expense of supporting Max to the max. thats maybe the only thing Horner and Marko agree on at this point lol.

also seems irrelevant to compare their 2nd seat to Max who imo is driving well past the limits of this year's RB. no one else is going to do that or come close to him in that team. certainly not any of the names that have been mentioned as replacements.

but aside from that tho, the rules regarding resource restrictions based on finishing position means not finishing 1st this year could very well provide an unintended benefit of giving them less of a disadvantage post 2025 summer and as they swith more attention to 2026?

so the downside of retaining Perez is not necessarily a disadvantage to them imo. someone will of course suggest that 1st in the constructors comes with more money but they have money and whatever they have sitting in their future allocated budgetary accounts is probably generating more interest than the difference in 1st to 2nd place prize money! their 2025 or 2026 budget wont be affected by a drop in the constructors table

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Presumably behind the scenes, Lawson has been told that they will decide whether or not to put him in one of the 2025 Cash Cows for next year before the end of the season or he will be free to go elsewhere.

Nah, I think Liam Liam has to take his future into his own hands now and say come on Audi i'm your man.

I believe tomorrow at Imola both Liam and Danny are on track in the current car (for a video shoot ) in what was billed as a shootout to determine some form of judgement data point to decide who should be driving the RB alongside Yuki for the rest of the year. That and the VCARB statement that they were reverting to their original junior development role. It seems they have now decided they are in the retirement home business.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Riccardo Keeps RB Seat After Summer Break

Worse decision than keeping Perez.
Old and slow is the new Red Bull driver selection criteria.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Worse decision than keeping Perez.
Old and slow is the new Red Bull driver selection criteria.

This

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Rusty Nail

Be interesting to see how the run in the old car will go, that's later on today isn't it?

Yep that is today at Imola... they have to use old (2022 or prior) cars under the Testing of Previous Car (TPC) programme. Today they are using the 2022 AlphaTauri AT03. Be a good opportunity for Liam and Danny to be compared back to back in the same car under the same conditions.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Rusty Nail

Be interesting to see how the run in the old car will go, that's later on today isn't it?

Originally Posted by E.B

Yep that is today at Imola... they have to use old (2022 or prior) cars under the Testing of Previous Car (TPC) programme. Today they are using the 2022 AlphaTauri AT03. Be a good opportunity for Liam and Danny to be compared back to back in the same car under the same conditions.

just a promotional filming day i assume, old car different tires, but how does this work during the summer break?

no doubt data will still be collected and evaluations are always ongoing, but to make a decision based on something like a filming day that occurs during summer break seems like a contravention of the shutdown rules?

i would also think that the Sainz signing at Williams must have happened prior to that cut off date and it was just the announcement of it, personal responses to it etc, which just happened to appear on-line or in media post the final session at Spa?

or are driving movements, changes, evaluations not regulated by the break rules?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Rusty Nail

Be interesting to see how the run in the old car will go, that's later on today isn't it?

Originally Posted by E.B

Yep that is today at Imola. Be a good opportunity for Liam and Danny to be compared back to back in the same car under the same conditions.

Filming day run & done. Turned out that Liam & Daniel drove different cars - no direct comparison or "shootout" possible.