[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[Articus]

With so many manufacturers, it becomes a bit of an information overload!

Is there a way to just show Porsche/Toyota/Ferrari and maybe Cadillac on those line plots at the bottom?

[Adam43]

Yes there is. Although a lot of the movements of those cars are because the others are around.

For instance the gradual increase could well be because where Isotta Fraschini is. And to a lesser extent where all the newer cars are.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Articus

I decided to also look at it from a different angle, comparing BOP from Le Mans and Sao Poalo which both feature the two stage system.

Specifically I wanted to compare Porsche and Toyota. The values shown are the difference between Toyota and Porsche at Le Mans and Sao Paolo. "Power 1" is below 250km/h and "Power 2" is above 250km/h.

Toyota compared to Porsche at Le Mans:
Weight: +11kg
Power 1: -3kw
Power 2: +2kw

Toyota compared to Porsche At Sao Paolo:
Weight: +9kg
Power 1: -6kw
Power 2: +8kw


The weight difference between Porsche and Toyota is smaller than Le Mans. Only 9kg where it was 11 at Le Mans. Additionally, for the cost of 3kw below 250km/h, Toyota now has 8kw more above 250km/h compared to only +2kw more at that speed for Le Mans.


On this evidence you would predict that Toyota will be ahead of Porsche again and by a larger margin than Le Mans. The weight difference is smaller and the power above 250km/h is even greater than Le Mans. This doesn't make sense to me.

It also contradicts the previous post where I suggested that the Toyota needed to be within 3-4 BOP points of the Porsche to be competitive based on the first 3 rounds. Of course it contradicts because I never believed that Toyota was as slow as they showed in Qatar, Imola, and Spa and that is what the previous post reference was based on. The year on year BOP change shouldn't have produced such an uncompetitive Toyota.

You do realize that Toyota started the year at 1089kg right?

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Matador

You do realize that Toyota started the year at 1089kg right?

I was referring to Spa (although it is not clearly stated in the post).

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Yes there is. Although a lot of the movements of those cars are because the others are around.

For instance the gradual increase could well be because where Isotta Fraschini is. And to a lesser extent where all the newer cars are.

Thank you. I don't mind the upward drift. You can still see the LMH, LMDH convergence/divergence.

[Adam43]

I wonder if balancing those two types is not straightforward. Both might well be within windows of mechanical grip, power delivery balance, drag and downforce, but I get the feeling it’s not a simple of just tweak a couple of BoP knobs and it’s all aligned.

Perhaps if you match, say, top speed then the rest is out of whack and it would be difficult to keep the lap times close and usability realistic.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I wonder if balancing those two types is not straightforward. Both might well be within windows of mechanical grip, power delivery balance, drag and downforce, but I get the feeling it’s not a simple of just tweak a couple of BoP knobs and it’s all aligned.

Perhaps if you match, say, top speed then the rest is out of whack and it would be difficult to keep the lap times close and usability realistic.

Something I have always said is that even if you run a spec-car championship (like Indycar), you can observe a performance variation of over 1 second across the field.

Trying to balance different cars is almost certainly a futile endeavor.

[tomcug]

Some notes from me that I didn't have time to write down before:

• clearly the Isotta is getting some BOP help, the only car with a negative weight difference vs Le Mans (and a highly negative one)
• on the other hand, the other underdog which is the 9X8 (sorry Peugeot fans, it finished behind Lambo at Le Mans), only a very slight positive offset vs top cars. My guess is either they'll get a break next race as the ACO have 1 less race of data vs the Isotta or they think there's more potential to extract from the package
• LMDh cars based on Dallara's chassis continue to be balanced the opposite way vs IMSA where the Caddy usually has more weight (even ~30 kgs more) and a bit worse power/weight. Here the BMW once again is the heavier car and with less power (Caddy's power cut above 250 kph simly drops the car to BMW's power). That leads to several possibilities - is the WEC Gannasi operation that bad? or the adjusted bodywork to pass Sauber's wind tunnel is hurting Caddy more and that is visible in homologation data? something else? hard to say imo
• Lambo the only car without both power and weight adjustments, if only they could make their BOP minimum weight that could be a strong contender
• as I mentioned before, the application of power gain for the GR010 and the 499P is interesting as those two cars have best straight line speed and they get a positive power correction. Will have to see the dynamics of different cars on track as it's obviously so much different from Le Mans. Seems for whatever reason they decided to give them less initial acceleration but more top end later on the straights.
• looking at BOP data top 3 cars should be quite close imo
• the GR010 has the same weight as the 499P despite being the quickest at Le Mans and that's another interesting thing. I see two options here, most likely the combined race data shows the GR010 inferior vs their Le Mans performance (disastrous Qatar and average Spa). But the other option is they don't want any car to weight more than around 1060 kg to prevent Qatar controversy (that's a comedy theory but ok, we never know)

The above points omit the Alpine as I'm not sure if it can make the finish

[Adam43]

I love a good comedy theory mainly when it is stated for context.

[Articus]

Nice. I always like seeing other interpretations. No comment on the comedy theory

GR010 weight matching the 499P makes sense based on pre-lemans performance. LMH weights should be higher than LMDH at all times. Typically, 10kg or more.
A424 completed the full race distance in each event before Le Mans.

[TF110]

Something that didn't come up in a long time in these threads with Brazil's race, the altitude and the adjustments for it for NA cars (eg. Cadillac). I think that's something that might come into play, but they do have the torque sensors.

[Adam43]

It’s an interesting side effect of the rules. No longer do turbos (or EV) give you a power advantage at altitude.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by TF110

Something that didn't come up in a long time in these threads with Brazil's race, the altitude and the adjustments for it for NA cars (eg. Cadillac). I think that's something that might come into play, but they do have the torque sensors.

I think it's something that will come into play, but Cadillac will not be the only team that is affected. The BOP table only tells you the maximum power permitted, but very little about how you get there. The engine drivability at altitude will be something that even the turbo cars may suffer from if not well tuned. There could also be cooling problems which might lead to not being able to run at full power in rare cases.

[Adam43]

They should have no problem reaching that power at that altitude. All the way through the rev range. That altitude loses you a bit, but not so much that it isn’t within the scope of the engine. Especially as the gaps can be filled with EV, which has zero impact at altitude. A

As we wonderfully saw on Pikes Peak and on the Moon.

There could be secondary considerations, but I suspect it is OK.

If they can’t make the power, or they do suffer with cooling say then we have to wonder if the car is actually a Vanwall.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Adam43

They should have no problem reaching that power at that altitude. All the way through the rev range. That altitude loses you a bit, but not so much that it isn’t within the scope of the engine. Especially as the gaps can be filled with EV, which has zero impact at altitude. A

As we wonderfully saw on Pikes Peak and on the Moon.

There could be secondary considerations, but I suspect it is OK.

If they can’t make the power, or they do suffer with cooling say then we have to wonder if the car is actually a Vanwall.

Based on what I'm seeing from the Alpines, we will need to revisit this

[Articus]

Onboard lap with telemetry of the Ferrari at Sao Paolo which can be used as a reference point for the 2 stage power gain. The only place where the Ferrari reaches above 250km/h is on the 2 straights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL1n4xddDnE

I estimate about 7-10 (depending on how you treat the brake zones seconds total above 250km/h on a lap which is 80-90 seconds so I can do a weighted average power calculation for each car based on this.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Articus

Based on what I'm seeing from the Alpines, we will need to revisit this

Of course I assume you don’t have a sh*tbox of an engine.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Articus

Based on what I'm seeing from the Alpines, we will need to revisit this

[Capeta]

Originally Posted by tomcug

Are they? The 5 is slower than the 7 despite having newer set on 1 side. Toyotas are miles ahead, others are pretty close.

Like last year after losing Le Mans Toyota have a BOP advantage.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Capeta

Like last year after losing Le Mans Toyota have a BOP advantage.

There wasn't any outrageous change in BOP compared to previous races. Either this track suits them or as was suggested before Le Mans over, so sandbags are out of the cars.

[kartman24]

Just got home and looked at the timimg page for the race, Toyota look to have a Huge advantage looking at the fastest lap times, all the other races times have been close, someone screwed up here on the BOP..........

[kartman24]

`or as was suggested before Le Mans over, so sandbags are out of the cars.`This

[Capeta]

Originally Posted by kartman24

`or as was suggested before Le Mans over, so sandbags are out of the cars.`This

So, BOP isn't good.
And wasn't for previous races too.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by kartman24

`or as was suggested before Le Mans over, so sandbags are out of the cars.`This

Maybe yes, maybe no. If that's the case the ACO will have to react and they have the tools, car's weight can go up to 1100 kg if needed. Clean sweep for Toyota in the last 4 races without any opposition (like it was last year) wouldn't be good for the championship.

[AndreasDavour]

Toyota and Ferraris have the same weight for this race, but it feels like the Toyota have had more speed early on.