'05 Silly Season

[StickShift]

I think it would be a huge mistake for Champ Car to invest so much into a driver of Yesterday, rather than try and use that money to invest in a driver of tomorrow who could become an ambassador to the series.

Jos Verstappen might open up the Dutch market... but what does it do for the American market? That's where Champ Car should be focussing itself.

[Rime]

Originally Posted by gert

May be true in the Netherlands.
But to put "Europe" is a *little* exagerated.

in Sweden they will say Wirdheim,
in France they will say Bourdais,
in Great Britain thet wll say it's Wilson.

BTW: Please don't forget:
Wirdheim won the F3000 title,
and if I recall correctly, I also think Bourdais won something...

What exactly did Jos win?

Some stats from google.com

Jos Verstappen 116000 hits
Champ Cars 78600 hits
Paul Tracy 68000 hits
Timo Glock 34400 hits
Jimmy Vasser 34000 hits
Alex Tagliani 19400 hits
Ryan Hunter Reay 13900 hits
Björn Wirdheim 4160 hits
Ronnie Bremer 3750 hits
Sebastian Bourdais 3510 hits

What did Jos win?

European Championship Formule K
European Championship Intercontinental A
Opel Lotus Benelux Championship
Opel Lotus Nations Cup
German F3 Championship
Marlboro Masters of F3
107 Grand Prix, 2 podiums

[StickShift]

From the sounds of it, Kalkhoven is only willing to pay up for a Coyne seat for Verstappen. Not HVM.

To be honest, I think the HVM and Forsythe deals have already been sewn up.

[Mosport67]

Whatever the stats show the fact Jos has the largest fan club. If that can translate to new ChampCar fans who will attend and watch races that helps. It is a big if though.

[Snrub]

The European fan angle is an interesting one, but I think it's difficult to predict. If CC can get a good TV audience than someone like Jos could be a real asset. If it's only an okay TV audience than it probably isn't enough. Some indication of that might be the number of European members who've started posting in this forum. It's up substantially.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Rime

Some stats from google.com

Jos Verstappen 116000 hits

[off topic mode]
Nice stats, Rime, but they don't mean a thing.
Not every page that returns a hit, is a JV fan page...

When you compare with:

Takuma Sato - 222.000
Felipe Massa - 201.000
Christian Klien - 166.000
Eddie Irvine - 144.000
Heinz-Harald Frentzen - 140.000
Jean Alesi - 134.000
Narain Karthikeyan - 132.000
Damon Hill - 128.000
Mika Hakkinen - 124.000
Ricardo Zonta - 106.000
Justin Wilson - 103.000
Pedro De La Rosa - 99.800

It only proves that there is much more material on the net about (fairly recent) Formula 1 than about ChampCar.

even
Anthony Davidson - 93.200
Antonio Pizzonia - 74.000
Gianmaria Bruni - 59.500
Zsolt Baumgartner - 52.000
get decent scores, and haven't been in formula 1 for too long...


BTW:

Originally Posted by Rime

Champ Cars 78600 hits

Champ Car - 830.000
ChampCar - 194.000


[/off topic mode]

[racinthestreets]

From RM

19 Cars. Lavin still entrenced - must have found some sponsorship?

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally Posted by StickShift

I think it would be a huge mistake for Champ Car to invest so much into a driver of Yesterday, rather than try and use that money to invest in a driver of tomorrow who could become an ambassador to the series.

Jos Verstappen might open up the Dutch market... but what does it do for the American market? That's where Champ Car should be focussing itself.

Someone gets it, well written there SS. How many of those Google hits will translate into any direct benefit for ChampCars where it needs it? And dont' talk about the potential benefit of a ChampCar race at Zandvoort, because there isn't any.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Someone gets it, well written there SS. How many of those Google hits will translate into any direct benefit for ChampCars where it needs it? And dont' talk about the potential benefit of a ChampCar race at Zandvoort, because there isn't any.

But the LMES sure would benefit from a race at Zandvoort...

Or better yet, a race at Assen.....

But I digress....

I'm glad to see things coming together for OWRS, and especially so for Derrick Walker....

Long Beach can't come soon enough

[luke]

Dominguez is comfirmed. cart.com

Forsythe Championship Racing is pleased to announce the signing of Mario Dominguez of Mexico City to race with the Team in the 2005 Bridgestone Presents the Champ Car World Series Powered by Ford. Dominguez will drive the #7 Indeck Ford-Cosworth/Lola/Bridgestone beginning with the 31st annual Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach, April 8-10.

[mac]

Originally Posted by dehaas32

Bjorn is not a talent ....

Wrong.

And the testing times that were put up as evidence is a ridiculous argument. One day of testing in what is commonly accepted to be the worst Lola in Champ Cars is hardly grounds to write someone off as having no talent.

[enemy-ace]

Judging from Wirdheim's performance in F3000, I would say he is a talent.

PT and Dominguez is going to be a very exciting team. There could be some real inter-team fireworks.

[minirda]

Rime, at 1st i thought you were being to optimistic about Jos' chances.

It's true that money makes the world go round. BUT.

(2nd) If Kalkhoven takes CCWS seriously and i assume he does, he should try to get Jos in a seat over the other candidates even if they have enough sponsorship. We've seen this before in f1. Kalkhoven might facilitate Jos entering in this series. Hell, he's way better than Bremer or even Wirdheim.

I conclude therefor Rime is right. Jos would bring lots more than a sponsor package to an individual team.

Fingers crossed!

[Mosport67]

Originally Posted by minirda

Hell, he's way better than Bremer or even Wirdheim.

I think Jos has proven what he is but it is a stretch to say he is way better than Wirdheim.

As to Bremer who knows what his potential is. He showed some flashes last season.

[minirda]

fair enough, Mo.....

Before i go to sleep:

Jos fan club is international. Not only dutch fans. He really is very popular. Far more popular than........ (name any).

[BootsOntheSide]

I doubt Jos has many fans in the countries ChampCars is racing in this year, and he'll have to go some to really get any in the short term. Unless the sponsorship Jos is bringing allows Keith Wiggins' team to be more independent and choose its second river purely on talent (Wirhdiem, by the looks of things), he woudn't be a major addition really.l

[Kicking-back]

Slagging off another driver in order to praise your own man is quite poor form.

[luke]

Originally Posted by minirda

Jos has more talent in his toes than Wirdheim in his whole body... Why don't you get it?

He's a good driver, and he'll do well in Champ Car. He has the potential to get good results in, and I believe he can.
He never really had a good shot in F1, he deserved a lot better.

[BootsOntheSide]

I don't get it because it's not true. None of the results actually bear it out. The car Jos tested was much more competitive than the car Bjorn tested. Ultimately Jos is brinign money to get a drive, and Bjorn isn't being expected to - presumably Keith Wiggins knows less than you? Wirdheim's F3000 championship season was the most dominant ever, despite his Monaco lapse he was 1st or 2nd in 8 races out of 10, in a team which had only previously wona handful of races despite runnign talents like Enge and Manning, even with Liuzzi as his team-mate, and F3000 pace was a good barometer of potential ChampCar pace in recent years.

[macdaddy]

An observation:
The "Teams" page on the CC website is currently listing only 16 cars.

They're only listing one car for each of Dale Coyne Racing and HVM, and they're not listing Jensen Motorsport at all.

They do mention Oriol Servia as driving for Coyne, although to the best of my knowledge that has never been confirmed. As a result, of the 16 cars, there is only one "TBA" as far as drivers are concerned, and that's for HVM. I'm assuming that this will soon be updated to list Wirdheim.

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Ultimately Jos is brinign money to get a drive, and Bjorn isn't being expected to ...

Not quibbling with your other arguements, but Robin Miller recently refered to Bjorn's father as his backer. Presumably Bjorn comes from a very wealthy family? I'm asking because I don't know much about Bjorn.

...even with Liuzzi as his team-mate, and F3000 pace was a good barometer of potential ChampCar pace in recent years.

I'm a F3000 ignoramous, so please excuse my question. Bjorn smoked the much touted Liuzzi when they were teammates?

[Dov]

Update:

With the Glock and Wirdheim confirmations we need 3 more and we'll have the 18 car grid for Long Beach - possibly we might have 19 but that is very unlikely to happen until Monterrey... let's keep sitting on pins and needless...

2005 line-up ("confirmed" entries in bold):

1. NEWMAN/HAAS = #1 - Sebastien Bourdais
2. NEWMAN/HAAS = #6 - Bruno Junqueira
3. FORSYTHE = #3 - Paul Tracy
4. FORSYTHE = #7 - Mario Dominguez
5. WALKER = #5 - Marcus Marshall
6. WALKER = #15 - Alex Tagliani
7. WIGGINS = #4 - Rodolfo Lavin or Ronnie Bremer or Jos Verstappen
8. WIGGINS = #16 - Björn Wirdheim
9. BACHELART = #27 - Andrew Ranger
10. BACHELART = #34 - Nelson Philippe
11. KALKHOVEN = #12 - Jimmy Vasser
12. KALKHOVEN = #21 - Cristiano DaMatta
13. GENTILOZZI = #8 - Timo Glock
14. GENTILOZZI = #31 - Ryan Hunter-Reay
15. RUSSO = #9 - Justin Wilson
16. RUSSO = #10 - AJ Allmendinger
17. COYNE = #19 - Oriol Servia
18. JENSEN = #23 - Michael Valiante or Jonathan Macri or ???

Possible additional entries:

19. FORSYTHE = #17 - Jos Verstappen
20. WALKER = #25 - Mario Haberfeld or Ronnie Bremer
21. COYNE = #11 - Ronnie Bremer or Ricardo Sperafico or ???


btw, for an updated picturesque version of the probable 2005 line-up and other possibilities -> go to the link in my sig ?!

zerO

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Snrub

I'm a F3000 ignoramous, so please excuse my question. Bjorn smoked the much touted Liuzzi when they were teammates?

They were not team-mates.

Wirdheim's team-mate was Townsend Bell.

Liuzzi was a rookie that year, in a different team - F3000 was very much an experience Formula.

[Rime]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

I don't get it because it's not true. None of the results actually bear it out. The car Jos tested was much more competitive than the car Bjorn tested. Ultimately Jos is brinign money to get a drive, and Bjorn isn't being expected to - presumably Keith Wiggins knows less than you? Wirdheim's F3000 championship season was the most dominant ever, despite his Monaco lapse he was 1st or 2nd in 8 races out of 10, in a team which had only previously wona handful of races despite runnign talents like Enge and Manning, even with Liuzzi as his team-mate, and F3000 pace was a good barometer of potential ChampCar pace in recent years.

Wirdheim is not a bad driver, but is also not that big talent you're thinking. The only championship he won in his career was was the F3000 with Arden (the Ferrari of F3000) in his second year. He didn't make it in F1 (Yes, Jaguar, I know...) and the signing with HVM is more because of the money he brings (Eurosport and his father) than because of his talent (which he has but not more than let's say Tiago Monteiro or Gianmaria Bruni). On the other hand he is a better driver then Mazzacan, Yoong or Bremer.

[StickShift]

Bjorn Wirdheim >>>.....>>>> Tiago Monteiro and Gianmaria Bruni

Wirdheim is at the very least at Liuzzi or Klien's level. He is definitely more talented than Verstappen IMO.

As well, he doesn't come with all the baggage that Jos brings.

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If by some chance Jos Verstappen does get a seat in Champ Car. I am not looking forward to it. The majority of his fans are insufferable and irrational.