[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[Articus]

Lets see what COTA brings.

[Articus]

delete, wrong thread.

[TF110]

I said this in the race thread, but I feel Toyota's advantage at Sao Paulo was more related to their setup. They have been in the WEC since 2012 and are the only factory team still in operation from the last time the WEC has raced in Brazil. Porsche was there before but not under the Penske team operation. I think with the knowledge of the track they had a leg up on the competition.

[Adam43]

I said this in the race thread. I can't have a stab at understanding this without information on what tyres they all had in the race and how they used it.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I said this in the race thread. I can't have a stab at understanding this without information on what tyres they all had in the race and how they used it.

Something notable is that only Toyota used the medium tire all race long. They did this because they could. The others had too much degradation.

In theory, the medium tire is quicker than the hard tire over 1 lap but more vulnerable to degradation if tire slip and tire temperature is not managed over the stint. Why some cars can manage slip and temperature better than others comes down to many factors like weight, setup, and DNA of the car.

I'm not sure this is within the ability of the ACO to predict before a race weekend. Certainly not from windtunnel numbers and power. If we would entertain race-week BOP changes (after FP2), then teams would just sandbag in free-practice so that it was harder for the ACO to detect the performance outliers.

The job of the ACO is very hard. I think we just have to accept it. I think overall across the 5 rounds, there has been relatively balanced hands dealt for Toyota, Porsche, and Ferrari who are the main protagonist this year. No one team has had a consistent performance edge. This is what we want to have over a season. We can always have a word about event-specific parity, but in the bigger picture it has been balanced. I expect Toyota to come back down to earth in COTA as they will probably get a weight increase.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Articus

I'm not sure this is within the ability of the ACO to predict before a race weekend.

Nor is it in the remit of BoP to correct for.

As for analyzing the data from São Paulo. It will make it very difficult to understand.

It is further complicated by choosing your tyres well before the race. This significant point was made in commentary. It is interesting that they have to do this before knowing what weight they will run. Not that the variation is that great.

[Articus]

Some food for thought.






Spa is composed mostly of high speed corners and rewarding aero efficiency. Sao Paolo is composed mostly of medium and low speed corners and not so much concern for aero efficiency due to the high altitude.

[Adam43]

The two new for 2024 tracks have been the ones with the biggest variation in average lap times, at least between the quickest and second quickest. Albeit still historically close.

[TF110]

Only Toyota used medium tires on it's cars. And it stayed with medium tires the whole race. Every other hypercar mixed or ran hard tires. This is outside the scope of bop if you go by the rule makers words. It was nearly opposite to Qatar but Toyota was 1089kg back then.

[Adam43]

I know that is the case for Toyota, and I don’t doubt that the others used other tyres. I wondered where you got confirmation of that?

It certainly worked. It could have gone quite bad if it hadn’t, but well done for having the foresight to order the right tyres and the ability to make it work.

[tomcug]

They were running mediums only because they could, others had too much degradation and running mediums only wouldn't do them any favors.
https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...gainst-toyota/

“The problem is when a car has such a huge advantage, it’s easy to manage whichever compound,” he said.

Good point, when you have a second in hand over nearest competition, it's no problem not to push and lower your advantage to 0.3-0.5 sec and still be easily quickest and have a massive advantage in tyres as well. Especially since others had to push to the max in order not to get lapped by hour 3 already... The only mistake Toyota did was trying to double stint all 4 tyres at the beggining of the race and that allowed the 5 to catch the 8. Once they understood they couldn't double stint other cars were simply crushed.
Pretty much like Imola but there it was the Ferrari with such a crazy pace advantage they didn't have to push and could triple/quad stint while others couldn't.

[Articus]

***Toyota team director Rob Leupen has become the first paddock figure to get into trouble with the WEC stewards for making comments to the media regarding Balance of Performance, which is forbidden by the series’ sporting regulations.

***The offending article was originally posted on the Dutch and Italian editions of Motorsport.c?m. In it, Leupen criticized the ACO and FIA for having a BoP process that he said “is not transparent” and called for more “honesty” from the rule makers going forward. “These statements call into question the impartiality of the FIA, cast suspicion on its integrity and cause moral harm,” read the relevant stewards’ bulletin.

***The punishment was a €10,000 ($10,900 USD) fine suspended for the remainder of the season, providing no similar remarks are made by anyone linked with Toyota. The stewards’ bulletin said some leniency was afforded to Leupen as it was the first time the rule forbidding open discussion of BoP has been enforced, but warned that future offenders may not be so fortunate.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...race-notebook/

[Articus]

Originally Posted by tomcug

They were running mediums only because they could, others had too much degradation and running mediums only wouldn't do them any favors.
https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...gainst-toyota/
.

Also from the same article:

Cannizzo also voiced his surprise at Toyota’s vastly improved performance compared to the early rounds of the WEC season, when it often struggled to match Ferrari and Porsche on pure performance.

“What is clear for me is that at the start of the season the performance of our competitors, especially Toyota, was very strange because it was slower than last year on the same tracks, even in better conditions,” he said.

This is something that I pointed out after Spa.


After the test day at Le Mans:

Floury: ‘If Porsche Loses, They Will Have Done a Bad Job’

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...one-a-bad-job/

Toyota Downplays 6H Sao Paulo Favorite Tag

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...-favorite-tag/

There is a pattern.

[chernaudi]

The thing I don't agree with is that the ACO and FIA are using selective enforcement of it's "no public discussion of BOP" rule. Especially given that others have publicly made statements about BOP that one can interpret as doing much the same thing. IMO smells a bit NASCAR-ish to me and that the ACO/FIA can't handle some criticism.


Only thing I can support here is that the ACO/FIA want to deal with this off the record, and don't want their dirty laundry aired. However, like all sanctioning bodies in all sports, the ACO and the FIA aren't exactly squeaky clean in avoiding allegations of corruption, nepotism, favoritism, and having rules written in pencil or invisible ink, enforcing, interpreting, or even legislating them willy nilly, and keeping the public in the dark.


Granted, the ACO/FIA with this isn't IMSA/ALMS 2006 bad, but IMO they need to come clean about a few things, namely what is/isn't an overly condemning comment about BOP, given that others have made comments about it over the past couple of years when the ACO and FIA have asked everyone to cut it out or self-censor such comments.

[Steve McQ]

Originally Posted by Articus

Also from the same article:




This is something that I pointed out after Spa.


After the test day at Le Mans:

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...one-a-bad-job/



https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...-favorite-tag/

There is a pattern.

Ferrari just won LM24, it is a bit too late for Toyota to show a supposed "true pace".
Ferrari are already preparing next years Le Mans. New aero kit to already start setuping the car, and by doing this the car is not as perfect as it was earlier in the season. With the performance slightly "tuned down", you are more likely to get better BoP parameter, all the more if you add cry baby press releases. The politics machine is on.

[chernaudi]

Let me make something clear: I followed sportscar racing since the days of LMP900 and LMP675, and I wouldn't mind returning to certain elements of those days, such as lack of any overt BOP. Being a privateer team who can't compete against a factory team or a team with a factory developed car and factory support? Tough cookies. Cars having different strengths and weaknesses? It can make racing interesting depending on the circuit and it's up to the teams to work things out. And so on.


However, BOP is supposed to contain costs, level the playing field, and give more teams a chance. The whole things does look good on paper.


Only negatives are that IMO it can sometimes (at least seem) to reward mediocrity and foster a reliance on the rules makers to be competitive, and it does seem to invite politicking, be it by the teams, manufacturers, or the sanctioning body, or all of the above.


But the genie isn't going back into the bottle, though the sanctioning bodies can IMO afford to be a bit more transparent and maybe a bit more sparing in how they apply it (accept that certain cars are better or weaker in areas than others) and stop pursuing parity, or if that's their goal, consider more things than just the final time on the stop watch (like how that time is achieved).


IMO, the total pursuit of parity in racing does at times ruin things. It takes away creativity from the teams, and makes the racing look more like entertainment than a sport, even accepting that racing has long been in the entertainment business like most sports also are.



My point is, as much as it's not liked (and I myself don't like BOP as far as elements of its concept, let alone application), it's very doubtful that BOP will be going away. But unless you want a spec race or an IROC race, we're pretty much stuck with it now. Unless you want to go back to LMP900 where Audi Sport dominated with factory and later privateer teams due to being the only OEM who cared to show up and stick it out. Or the dumpster fire that 2014-2020 LMP1 evolved into.

[helgi]

Why not to use cost caps, like they do in F1, and limit only energy consumption? Transparent and efficient. As for the "show" - it's journalists' and commentators' job to make fans being entertained. Not drivers'. They are not clowns.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Let me make something clear: I followed sportscar racing since the days of LMP900 and LMP675, and I wouldn't mind returning to certain elements of those days, such as lack of any overt BOP. Being a privateer team who can't compete against a factory team or a team with a factory developed car and factory support? Tough cookies. Cars having different strengths and weaknesses? It can make racing interesting depending on the circuit and it's up to the teams to work things out. And so on.

That's what they had from 2018-2021. It was because of the GTE-Pro category that the championship did not collapse.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

However, BOP is supposed to contain costs, level the playing field, and give more teams a chance. The whole things does look good on paper.


Only negatives are that IMO it can sometimes (at least seem) to reward mediocrity and foster a reliance on the rules makers to be competitive, and it does seem to invite politicking, be it by the teams, manufacturers, or the sanctioning body, or all of the above.

To call any car that manages to win races under this system "mediocre" is far from the reality of the situation. The current BOP adjustment range will never make a truly bad car competitive enough to win races. You can see that Peugeot struggled even with every concession possible given to them.

We see every race weekend that the positions are decided by much more than the pure performance of the cars. Some cars were more reliable. Some teams executed better strategy. Some teams made better pitstops. Some drivers made fewer errors. This kind of competition is just as rewarding as one that is dominated by technical supremacy. Teams don't just win solely because they have better car performance. Such a conclusion waters down the significant effort that it takes to win races in this championship.

[chernaudi]

Has it fixed the politicking and bickering, with the ACO's mandated "gag order"? Nope. Has it fixed the fans and media question motives or reasoning? Nope.



And it should be noted that BOP hasn't "fixed" the issue with parity among teams (and IMO, it shouldn't). Even in spec or quasi-spec series like NASCAR or Indy Car, you still have issues of there being "haves" and "have nots". The bigger teams will always spend whatever it takes to even have a narrow margin over everyone else, and that those small margins inevitably become more difficult to overcome for obvious reasons.


Hence, I'm sort of sympathetic, or at least empathetic, to those in favor of a form of cost cap. But even that has issues, with what is/isn't or should/shouldn't be included or covered, and a lot of times the teams will just spend that money elsewhere, like they're a government committee.



I know that the days of LMP900/early LMP1 are basically gone, BOP is probably here to stay in some form, and (something I don't agree with in much of anything) is the desire for instant results and gratification--and the fans and media are just as culpable for this as teams, OEMs and sanctioning bodies.


Basically, we have the extremes of LMP900/early LMP1, 2014-20 LMP1 and such, where there was often relatively little competition at the front of the field (when factory teams were around) or runaway costs. And we also have things like what Grand Am tried to do with the DP class to contain costs, reduce tech, and boost competition, but produced dishwater dull cars. And even the cost capped LMP2 class has issues with Oreca basically having a monopoly.


The question, IMO, is what's the best compromise in today's world and situation?

[Adam43]

Probably this.

And if São Paulo is an example of a race where it doesn’t work. They and we are doing well!

[chernaudi]

You also can't (or at least shouldn't try to) BOP experience, and Toyota were the only team to have raced there in the LMP1 era that's still competing now, even if the cars back then were vastly different to what we have now.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

You also can't (or at least shouldn't try to) BOP experience, and Toyota were the only team to have raced there in the LMP1 era that's still competing now, even if the cars back then were vastly different to what we have now.

Porsche and Ferrari also raced there. The Penske team is supported heavily by Weissach who developed the 919. This is where they are doing their pre-race simulations. Ferrari and AF Corse also raced the GT cars there and the LMH cars are closer to gt cars than lmp1. There is no shortage of experience compared to Toyota.

The reason Toyota was so strong is surprisingly simple to me. They were given too much of a weight break since Spa. They were the same weight as the Ferrari and only 9kg heavier than the Porsche in Brazil. Toyota has always had a faster car than the others on a fundamental level. Without BOP, Toyota would win every race. That's not the point of the championship.

The only way you are going to see the others challenge Toyota is if the Toyota is around 10kg heavier than the Ferrari, and around 15-20kg heavier than the Porsche depending on circuit.

Look at the BOP weights and make a mental note of the relative performance of the manufacturers at each event vs the difference in BOP weights:


In Qatar the Toyota was +41kg to Toyota and Porsche was too far ahead.
In Imola Toyota was +27kg to Porsche and Toyota was slightly behind.
In Spa Toyota was +27 kg, and behind Porsche again.
In Le Mans Toyota was only +11kg to Porsche, and Toyota was now ahead
In Brazil Toyota was only +9kg to Porsche, and Toyota was even further ahead.


The ideal number for the weight difference between Porsche and Toyota lies somewhere between +15-20kg.

The trend of increasing competitiveness of Toyota follows directly from the decreasing BOP weight relative to the other cars. The ACO needs to go back in the other direction or it will be the same outcome in COTA.

[Adam43]

Toyota have demonstrated that they are pretty good at the tyre thing. They used their knowledge and experience to know they could choose the softer tyres for that track (weeks in advance) and the temperature, and be able to manage it. A small advantage became a (relatively) a big one.

They haven’t always got it right, like at the beginning of the year, but this calculated gamble paid off.

What tyres did they chose in Qatar? I’d be interested in that.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Toyota have demonstrated that they are pretty good at the tyre thing. They used their knowledge and experience to know they could choose the softer tyres for that track (weeks in advance) and the temperature, and be able to manage it. A small advantage became a (relatively) a big one.

They haven’t always got it right, like at the beginning of the year, but this calculated gamble paid off.

What tyres did they chose in Qatar? I’d be interested in that.

Regarding Qatar, Toyota had both compounds available. Nothing worked for them.

Regarding the tire point, remember that it was not "just" a tire allocation thing. You only have to consider stints on the same tire. We saw like for like conditions at the start of the race on the medium tires for Toyota and Porsche and the Toyota drove away from the Porsches that were also on the mediums at a breakneck speed.



We also saw the performance in qualifying. In all of the non-Le Mans rounds, the pole sitting manufacturer also had the fastest lap of the race and the strongest race pace. Qualifying already reveals the race pecking order.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Articus

Porsche and Ferrari also raced there. The Penske team is supported heavily by Weissach who developed the 919. This is where they are doing their pre-race simulations. Ferrari and AF Corse also raced the GT cars there and the LMH cars are closer to gt cars than lmp1. There is no shortage of experience compared to Toyota.

The reason Toyota was so strong is surprisingly simple to me. They were given too much of a weight break since Spa. They were the same weight as the Ferrari and only 9kg heavier than the Porsche in Brazil. Toyota has always had a faster car than the others on a fundamental level. Without BOP, Toyota would win every race. That's not the point of the championship.

The only way you are going to see the others challenge Toyota is if the Toyota is around 10kg heavier than the Ferrari, and around 15-20kg heavier than the Porsche depending on circuit.

Look at the BOP weights and make a mental note of the relative performance of the manufacturers at each event vs the difference in BOP weights:


In Qatar the Toyota was +41kg to Toyota and Porsche was too far ahead.
In Imola Toyota was +27kg to Porsche and Toyota was slightly behind.
In Spa Toyota was +27 kg, and behind Porsche again.
In Le Mans Toyota was only +11kg to Porsche, and Toyota was now ahead
In Brazil Toyota was only +9kg to Porsche, and Toyota was even further ahead.


The ideal number for the weight difference between Porsche and Toyota lies somewhere between +15-20kg.

The trend of increasing competitiveness of Toyota follows directly from the decreasing BOP weight relative to the other cars. The ACO needs to go back in the other direction or it will be the same outcome in COTA.

Ferrari raced there in the GT class, not the prototype class, and Penske never race there--Porsche competed there with their own factory team in 2014.