[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[GTRMagic]

Why are so many senior people leaving RedBull?

Story Here

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Why are so many senior people leaving RedBull?

Story Here

Maybe the knock on effect of Newey leaving and the Horner case. People are seeing the team is maybe losing it’s grip and the writing is on the wall

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Why are so many senior people leaving RedBull?

Story Here

Because it is the easiest way for another team to gain knowledge of what made a series of cars successful.It would take longer and cost more to determine the facts by a process of research and deduction.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Because it is the easiest way for another team to gain knowledge of what made a series of cars successful.It would take longer and cost more to determine the facts by a process of research and deduction.

Good point there

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Because it is the easiest way for another team to gain knowledge of what made a series of cars successful.It would take longer and cost more to determine the facts by a process of research and deduction.

Exactly. people cashing in an who can blame them.

Same happened at Mercedes.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Because it is the easiest way for another team to gain knowledge of what made a series of cars successful.It would take longer and cost more to determine the facts by a process of research and deduction.

There still needs to be an incentive for those people to leave a team, that's very successful like RBR and come to work for another team.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Because it is the easiest way for another team to gain knowledge of what made a series of cars successful.It would take longer and cost more to determine the facts by a process of research and deduction.

Yep - has often been the way. We saw plenty of people leaving Mercedes during and after its success (most notably James Vowles but there were other senior figures who also left). It's the natural way of things, to be expected and when you think about it, helps with performance convergence.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

There still needs to be an incentive for those people to leave a team, that's very successful like RBR and come to work for another team.

New challenges, different coloured shirt, moving to another location or country, opportunity to build something, maybe the odd personal gripe, financial gain - all of those plus a host of other similar incentives have for decades meant that workforces across the various teams in F1 can be fairly fluid from year to year.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Maybe the knock on effect of Newey leaving and the Horner case. People are seeing the team is maybe losing it’s grip and the writing is on the wall

Generally agree with this assessment. Empires don't last forever.

Richard

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

There still needs to be an incentive for those people to leave a team, that's very successful like RBR and come to work for another team.

Those reasons usually turn out to be Dollars,Euros,pounds and impressive job titles.

[Skam85]

This Red Bull stuff all feels very "Williams in the late 90s". There are definite parallels.

Many brilliant glory years, questionable driver choices but are now losing key staff, including Adrian Newey. New engine partner coming on board.

Should Max leave, we could see a 98-99 Williams repeat at Red Bull where they drop back before an increase in form, like when Williams got in bed with BMW.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

There still needs to be an incentive for those people to leave a team, that's very successful like RBR and come to work for another team.

Ambition.
When you are in a successful organization and have grown as much as you can, competitive people usually want to stretch themselves professionally or have person ambitions about things they would like to try or do. If there is no room in the organization then leaving is the next step to find room to grow personally or professionally.

Wheatley had ambitions to be a team principal. He cast a few lines and Audi said "Mr. Wheatley, we have a door for you over here", and he walked through it.

[antnee]

Have Redbull messed up big time when looking at available drivers? They are the only team to have a genuine 'junior' team, yet can't seem to get a good, consistent #2 since Ricciardo left. Surely by having a junior team, you should always have a stream of drivers ready to jump into the second Redbull car who can push on and score lots of points. Yet the whole Perez saga this year has shown that this isn't the case at all. The other top teams don't have junior teams (officially) yet when circumstance requires them to put someone in at short notice (eg, Bearman for Sainz) they perform well.

On the flip side, does having a junior team put too much pressure on the Redbull #2 driver?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by antnee

Have Redbull messed up big time when looking at available drivers? They are the only team to have a genuine 'junior' team, yet can't seem to get a good, consistent #2 since Ricciardo left. Surely by having a junior team, you should always have a stream of drivers ready to jump into the second Redbull car who can push on and score lots of points. Yet the whole Perez saga this year has shown that this isn't the case at all. The other top teams don't have junior teams (officially) yet when circumstance requires them to put someone in at short notice (eg, Bearman for Sainz) they perform well.

On the flip side, does having a junior team put too much pressure on the Redbull #2 driver?

The way the Red Bull academy drivers have been managed is appalling.
Yes, they have had Vettel and Max come through and they have had a successive dominance over three or four years, usually due to the technical team exploiting regulations in a way that created a technical excellence.

But the high rotation of drivers, the inability to persevere and develop a cluster of good drivers who could step up in a future main team drive makes their academy look like a failure.

Sainz was quick but they chose to axe him because they had decided Max would be a dominant number one.
That is there choice. But it is ludicrous to have max operate as a dominant number one when you sack people because they are not as quick, or struggle early on, or you think they are not adapting quickly enough.
There is no nurture. But if it is an academy system there should be nurture and reasonable expectations. The second team therefore, has been a failure in that sense.
It has never met its potential as a nursery team because the transitions have been mismanaged.

[S griffin]

Basically it’s all or nothing for the drivers coming up through the Red Bull academy. If you’re not a Vettel or a Verstappen, you’re in trouble. It doesn’t matter if you are doing a good job, like Sainz did. If Red Bull aren’t recognising your talent, it’s time to move on. The system has broken more drivers than made them

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Basically it’s all or nothing for the drivers coming up through the Red Bull academy. If you’re not a Vettel or a Verstappen, you’re in trouble. It doesn’t matter if you are doing a good job, like Sainz did. If Red Bull aren’t recognising your talent, it’s time to move on. The system has broken more drivers than made them

Or it shows you need to have a V at the beginning of your last name to be successful

Verez
Vicardo

they both have a good ring to it

[bjohnsonsmith]

I came across a couple of articles, that point to Helmut Marko's ruthless approach in dealing with young drivers coming through the driver development orogramme, as well as drivers who have made it to the F1 teams.

https://f1i.com/news/304538-marko-ru...-markelov.html

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/10...z-yuki-tsunoda

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I came across a couple of articles, that point to Helmut Marko's ruthless approach in dealing with young drivers coming through the driver development orogramme, as well as drivers who have made it to the F1 teams.

https://f1i.com/news/304538-marko-ru...-markelov.html

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/10...z-yuki-tsunoda

I wouldn’t want Marko anywhere near me if I was an up and comer. Yes he might give me a chance, but the amount of public pressure coming from him would be way too much. He doesn’t seem to know when to give his lips sealed and thinks slagging off his own drivers will make them go faster. But is it any wonder why he never heaped this sort of pressure on Vettel and Verstappen? Clearly he expects all of them to be like them two. And that is completely unreasonable expectations

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I came across a couple of articles, that point to Helmut Marko's ruthless approach in dealing with young drivers coming through the driver development orogramme, as well as drivers who have made it to the F1 teams.

https://f1i.com/news/304538-marko-ru...-markelov.html

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/10...z-yuki-tsunoda

Both articles are chock full of mistakes though.

[S griffin]

Red Bull need something big after the summer break. With so many staff leaving and with their car no longer the best, they are starting to look more and more vulnerable

[P38 in workshop]

It is beginning to feel like an echo of 2014 and it took a while for dominance to come back.What remains to be seen is whether the next few years will see McLaren doing what Mercedes did after a spell of Red Bull dominance,or if another team becomes number one.Expect a reset when the new rules come along.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

The way the Red Bull academy drivers have been managed is appalling.
Yes, they have had Vettel and Max come through and they have had a successive dominance over three or four years, usually due to the technical team exploiting regulations in a way that created a technical excellence.

But the high rotation of drivers, the inability to persevere and develop a cluster of good drivers who could step up in a future main team drive makes their academy look like a failure.

Sainz was quick but they chose to axe him because they had decided Max would be a dominant number one.
That is there choice. But it is ludicrous to have max operate as a dominant number one when you sack people because they are not as quick, or struggle early on, or you think they are not adapting quickly enough.
There is no nurture. But if it is an academy system there should be nurture and reasonable expectations. The second team therefore, has been a failure in that sense.
It has never met its potential as a nursery team because the transitions have been mismanaged.

The junior team has absolutely succeeded, because it has yielded seven world titles. Probably 8.

Red Bull are not in the business to be nice and cuddly. They aren't a creche.

[Skam85]

There is also the fact that 35% of the grid have come from, or are currently in the Red Bull stable, with all of them bar Tsunoda and Albon being race winners.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Skam85

The junior team has absolutely succeeded, because it has yielded seven world titles. Probably 8.

Red Bull are not in the business to be nice and cuddly. They aren't a creche.

I said the system was a failure in the sense that it did not nurture the drivers it discarded and the fact that several of them are still in F1 is in spite of that failure, not because of it.
I had also mentioned that their multiple champions had been the outstanding successes from all the people they had taken into the programme. In that sense they got what they wanted and tht was the measure of their success.
But I had not disputed that fact, only that the way their cast offs were treated was deficient.

It could be also argued that the fact that so many of their cast offs were still in F1 successfully, but not with Red Bull, was an indication that the methodology lacked something that was missing.

[bathurst77]

It is interesting. We had years of Merc/Ham dominance, everyone else fighting for scraps. THen redbull/max found the special sauce, and just pipped merc that first year (who can forget that final race furore!)
The following year Merc lost the plot and rebull/max were a class of their own for a couple of years.

For that spell it was 1 superteam way in front, everyone else second. IT wa just that the number 1 spot swapped hands.

Now a number of teams have caught up, Redbull is still top dog, but not by much, and there are 3 teams all capable of beating them. There is no clear pecking order anymore.

I think its no coincidence that it happened after the christian scandal. Once the leadership has to put out fires and stops concentrating on core business, the focus shifts and progress slows, mistakes are made..
Perhaps this was always the mind game theatre that people were trying to achieve?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Skam85

The junior team has absolutely succeeded, because it has yielded seven world titles. Probably 8.

Red Bull are not in the business to be nice and cuddly. They aren't a creche.

There is so much misunderstanding about the Red Bull juniors. First of all, it's there to find future superstars, not competency of even occasional race winners like Ricciardo and Sainz.

Then, different drivers are on wildly different deals - with many having no finance at all, just the right to use the brand to lever other investors. Some have gotten some budget, not too many full. Notice drivers leave the scheme part way through a year but it rarely affects their actual drive that they are paying for.

Having said it is successful, and having yielded so many drivers and constructors titles, people also need to remember that Verstappen was really signed for F1 out of F3 before joining the juniors for the latter part of his F3 season, and Vettel was really a BMW junior - that Red Bull shared with them.