[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

I think its no coincidence that it happened after the christian scandal. Once the leadership has to put out fires and stops concentrating on core business, the focus shifts and progress slows, mistakes are made..

cant disagree with that but also wonder about how the rule changes have affected them (both from the spending limit penalty and the rules governing restricted development time based on finishing position). also curious how much bringing in the engine development inhouse has affected their time/resources? are they stretched thin at the moment? all of this with the passing of Dietrich Mateschitz and the power vacuum left behind in the background and seemingly RB becoming an entity that may not care as much about (extreme) sport as it once did (that part is just an assumption on my part)?

another thought/questions about reduced wind tunnel and CFD time...how has it affected their aero department (one of the major keys to their success), how it altered their workload, does that affect how much freedom a person like Newey has, how does that affect that department overall, were redundancies created (the movement of staff), does Newey look at this sliding scale of resource restriction and think i can do more/have more influence over at at team further down the ladder (while AM looks to be a new challenge it is also one that has at its disposal all of the toys he likes to play with)?

so i guess my question is, would RB have found themselves in this same position had the scandal not played out as publicly as it did?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

so i guess my question is, would RB have found themselves in this same position had the scandal not played out as publicly as it did?

In my view, possibly. the design decisions were made on the Red bull last year, before the scandal broke and of course the work done by other teams would not be impacted by the scandal in any way.

To balance that, decisions made at Grands Prix and between races on setup & strategy may well have been knocked just a bit off kilter by all the shenanigans - so RBR may not have been making the most of what it has at all races.

[Tourer]

Behind the scenes at Red Bull Ford Powertrains - doesn't reveal a whole lot, other than it is a big & very serious undertaking. Being "out there" with Ferrari as the only two teams with engine and chassis development out of the same campus is a very big change for RBR.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

cant disagree with that but also wonder about how the rule changes have affected them (both from the spending limit penalty and the rules governing restricted development time based on finishing position). also curious how much bringing in the engine development inhouse has affected their time/resources? are they stretched thin at the moment? all of this with the passing of Dietrich Mateschitz and the power vacuum left behind in the background and seemingly RB becoming an entity that may not care as much about (extreme) sport as it once did (that part is just an assumption on my part)?

another thought/questions about reduced wind tunnel and CFD time...how has it affected their aero department (one of the major keys to their success), how it altered their workload, does that affect how much freedom a person like Newey has, how does that affect that department overall, were redundancies created (the movement of staff), does Newey look at this sliding scale of resource restriction and think i can do more/have more influence over at at team further down the ladder (while AM looks to be a new challenge it is also one that has at its disposal all of the toys he likes to play with)?

so i guess my question is, would RB have found themselves in this same position had the scandal not played out as publicly as it did?

Question about the current threat to their position in WCC by McLaren and to a lesser extent by Merc and Modena. If they lose first place in the WCC does it mean there is a trade off in WindTunnel time (more) if RBR drop a position or two.
While the gaps between the prize money is larger at the top than the bottom (which is around 6-7 million lower down) is there a possibility that more WindTunnel time could be just as beneficial on development for 2026....

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Question about the current threat to their position in WCC by McLaren and to a lesser extent by Merc and Modena. If they lose first place in the WCC does it mean there is a trade off in WindTunnel time (more) if RBR drop a position or two.
While the gaps between the prize money is larger at the top than the bottom (which is around 6-7 million lower down) is there a possibility that more WindTunnel time could be just as beneficial on development for 2026....

Not without Adrian Newey!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Question about the current threat to their position in WCC by McLaren and to a lesser extent by Merc and Modena. If they lose first place in the WCC does it mean there is a trade off in WindTunnel time (more) if RBR drop a position or two.
While the gaps between the prize money is larger at the top than the bottom (which is around 6-7 million lower down) is there a possibility that more WindTunnel time could be just as beneficial on development for 2026....

Here is a good article that talks about the sliding scale regarding how your finishing position in the WCC impacts your tunnel time.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...4A0cjbNRbdYx8a

The goal of these adjustments seem to want to compress the field. You take away from the top and you give to the bottom. All on a progressive scale. For the 7th place team as baseline of 100% of allowed time with those above reduced and those below increased. 1st place is 70% and second is 75%
The tunnel time gain by loosing the championship purposefully is not worth it IMHO. I think teams should always be trying to obtain the best finishing position they can given their strategies. For example if you are capable of winning the championship this year, then work to that goal. If you are deep in the field, you may focus more on future cars (i.e. Williams focusing on 2026).

I also think the loss of Newey might be hard to quantify. It might be bad, or there might be a solid foundation in place who worked under him.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

While the gaps between the prize money is larger at the top than the bottom (which is around 6-7 million lower down) is there a possibility that more WindTunnel time could be just as beneficial on development for 2026....

i think so and have alluded to this possibility before.

while i agree with Richard that teams should always be trying to achieve their best results, i do think there could be an unintended opportunity to be had here by not finishing in 1st in the WCC for this year as it would yield more time/resources during the latter half of 2025 leading into the 2026 rule change season. more so even as they have been trying to limit how much early work can be done addressing the 2026 rule set?

as for the prize money reduction...perhaps this too is something that can be covered or mitigated by retaining a driver like Perez who is both popular (sells a lot of kit) and someone who can attract some high level sponsors or funding and thus stem the effects of losing out on 1st place prize monies?

effectively they may have hedged their bets as it were. provided they can still win the drivers (even though that does not come with money), sacrificing the constructors title this year could be something worth living with and/or maybe even be desirable?

all things being equal tho, it looks like Mclaren, Merc, and Ferrari may be the teams better able to naturally take advantage of this unintended opportunity...will be interesting to see how development plays out for the remainder of this season and whether or not 2024 becomes the year that no one actually wants to win the constructors title?

stranger than fiction!

[VIVA GT]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if what Chilli suggests above is correct.
From my 60-odd years of watching Formula One I have noticed an increasing tendency of things never appearing to be done for what I would call 'face value' reasons. It is often called 'the bigger picture' when explanations are made as to why decisions that are made that apparently go against what we fans think should be happening. As rules change (in this case budget cap and resource restrictions) the clever boffins factor in all of the positives and negatives (of everything) to make their decision.

[Mike Harte]

The appeal by the female complainant has been dismissed by another independent lawyer. One wonders whether her alleged boyfriend will be entirely satisfied that he hasn't scored a hit against Horner, and whether he will persuade her to take the matter further, or that this will finally be the end of the matter.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

The appeal by the female complainant has been dismissed by another independent lawyer. One wonders whether her alleged boyfriend will be entirely satisfied that he hasn't scored a hit against Horner, and whether he will persuade her to take the matter further, or that this will finally be the end of the matter.

Can't imagine the alleged boyfriend will back off - has shown himself to extraordinarily pig-headed too often for that to happen. He'll also like the idea of taking the complaint to some kind of external tribunal as I would imagine that some or all documentation could become public. Of course, whether the complainant wants to subject herself to all that is something else entirely.

[GTRMagic]

Presumably the expectation of next steps might include the official naming of all concerned, and a ‘proper’ Daily Mirror story on the lifetime of proclivities of the complainant laid out for all the world to see.

Which would destroy a regular person let alone someone who has identified themselves as vulnerable and aggrieved and now seemingly unsatisfied in the treatment of their complaint.

[S griffin]

So no probe against Horner. I guess we might never know the full truth of why this came out in the first place. Let's just hope nothing more comes out of this

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by S griffin

So no probe against Horner. I guess we might never know the full truth of why this came out in the first place. Let's just hope nothing more comes out of this

You may have misunderstood this matter; we pretty much know why it all came about - the alleged boyfriend wanted Horner's job. And there appears to be be two factions within the organisation, one with support from the Austrian camp and the other with support from the Thai shareholder.

And there have now been two investigations put in place by the Red Bull parent company - not the team - by two independent senior lawyers who have decided that, basically, that there was nothing to see. The results of the investigations were never meant to be made public.

[Sandgroper]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

You may have misunderstood this matter; we pretty much know why it all came about - the alleged boyfriend wanted Horner's job. And there appears to be be two factions within the organisation, one with support from the Austrian camp and the other with support from the Thai shareholder.

And there have now been two investigations put in place by the Red Bull parent company - not the team - by two independent senior lawyers who have decided that, basically, that there was nothing to see. The results of the investigations were never meant to be made public.

never mind

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

So no probe against Horner. I guess we might never know the full truth of why this came out in the first place. Let's just hope nothing more comes out of this

I guess the question for me is where are we in the larger "process" that would adjudicate this entire mess? I may be mistaken, but it's my understanding that it broadly is:

(1) Follow (and exhaust) all internal Red Bull processes
(2) Legal actions

I "think" we just finished up #1 (internal appeal is done) and that potential for #2 remains? That this may or may not be the end of the story? But others who may be more knowledgeable can comment.

As to the truth... Maybe someday someone will write a well researched book that provides more insights. The topic has been talked to death. People seem to be on team Horner or not and those in each position can't be shaken from their respective beliefs.

The summary of my position is that Horner was participating in inappropriate behavior that in most any large company would result in either them being fired or the other party being handsomely paid off with the requirement they sign an NDA. But who knows what exists within Red Bull HR policies and internal governance procedures. Maybe as boorish as Horner's behavior seemed to be (if you believe the leaks are real and I do) it all is permissible within Red Bull? Layer all of this on top of internal power struggles. It is likely that without one issue (boorish behavior) might not have risen up to this level of drama without the other (internal power struggles).

Is the team better off because of this? I can't see how anyone would argue that it is. Is this a black eye on both Red Bull and Horner? Absolutely. But it seems (short of future legal action being taken) they have hunkered down and are weathering the storm. Horner seems to have won the internal struggle and prior foes might be lining up behind him as they see how things are working out.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

It will be interesting to see, now the appeal process has been concluded and the appeal not being upheld, how RBR as a team perform in the next race the Dutch GP, Verstappen's home race, in 2 weeks time. RBR and Verstappen haven't won a GP since Spain.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Richard C

People seem to be on team Horner or not and those in each position can't be shaken from their respective beliefs.

I don't think anyone could accuse me of being on Team Horner, but I do have some sympathy for him in this case. Two KCs have concluded that he did nothing wrong, or at least nothing wrong enough to uphold the complaint. Now the complainant is given anonymity in the name of "confidentiality", but Horner has had his name dragged through the mud for about 6 or 8 months. In the name of fairness it would have been much better to either name neither (my preference) or name both.

It seems to me that Red Bull's troubles go far beyond this matter and are accelerating. However it can't have been good for the team over the first half of the season for the Team Principal to be distracted in this way. Given the lead-times involved in F1, I don't find it implausible to think that maybe the current relative loss of performance is linked to management being distracted early in the year. There may be more to come.

[Mike Harte]

Although not named by Red Bull or Red Bull Racing, her name is known as it became clear to most, including the media, that she was his PA at the time that the complaint was made. The fact that Horner's name became known to the media was part of the campaign to unseat him from his position as the team principal.

It is important to remember that both he and the complainant agreed to a non-disclosure agreement right from the start of the matter when the complaint was originally made. Only one side appears to have broken that agreement.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I don't think anyone could accuse me of being on Team Horner, but I do have some sympathy for him in this case. Two KCs have concluded that he did nothing wrong, or at least nothing wrong enough to uphold the complaint.

That seems like a pretty low bar to feel sorry for him. I have sympathy for his wife and family. Not much for him.

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Now the complainant is given anonymity in the name of "confidentiality", but Horner has had his name dragged through the mud for about 6 or 8 months.

What is the saying? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes? When in a high profile position, you become a target for getting publicly burnt. Horner is a celebrity. So right or wrong his personal life runs the risk of playing out on the public stage. Then... combine your personal life with subordinate co-workers and you just increase the overall risk. Is it fair? I don't know. Would he have known this is a risk before his actions? I don't think he is that stupid to not know. Did he think he wouldn't get caught? For sure, everyone (dumb or smart) who plays games like this think they will not get caught.

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

It seems to me that Red Bull's troubles go far beyond this matter and are accelerating. However it can't have been good for the team over the first half of the season for the Team Principal to be distracted in this way. Given the lead-times involved in F1, I don't find it implausible to think that maybe the current relative loss of performance is linked to management being distracted early in the year. There may be more to come.

All organizations have some level of internal drama. And I think probably the #1 item for success in F1 is good management. And I think it is fair to say that Red Bull has been distracted recently. They roll from one issue to the next. Be it Hornergate, staff leaving, the never ending questions around Perez, etc. It has got to be a drag on the organization.

Richard

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It is important to remember that both he and the complainant agreed to a non-disclosure agreement right from the start of the matter when the complaint was originally made. Only one side appears to have broken that agreement.

We are probably re-litigating stuff discussed ad nauseam months ago, but I assume you mean the Google Drive leaks? Do we know for sure who leaked the information? Do we know they signed NDAs? I thought the leading theory was that it was not the complainant, but rather someone internal to Red Bull who had access to the evidence and was using it to hurt Horner? My point is that we don't really know one way or the other.

Richard

[Mike Harte]

Richard, the disclosures started right from the off, let alone the supposed Google Drive stuff. From the beginning, both said that they wouldn't disclose anything, certainly whilst the matter was being investigated. But very quickly, it became known that Horner was at the centre of the complaint, and I'm pretty certain that he wouldn't have disclosed that information.

It is also alleged that the Google Drive stuff was released by her alleged boyfriend, who is known to covet the position of team principal.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It is also alleged

I hear what your saying, but quoting one part that is key. Lots of speculation. Some reports of things in media. Some of which might be true or not. We all know there are contradictory media stories. It reminds me of the Dire Straights song "Industrial Disease" with the line that says "Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong." People pick things out of the entire media soup and claim them as facts. I do try to say my position is my opinion and as to which things I feel are accurate.

Regarding any NDAs. Do I think NDAs were signed? More than likely they were as matter of course. Do we know who may or may not have violated NDAs? I think we absolutely do not. We can speculate, but we don't know. And it is also likely (in my opinion) that while there may have been plenty of blanket NDAs going around amongst many people, (my opinion is that) more than just the two main participants likely knew specifics and had details. And with this, they may or may not have been able to stop the leaks from others. Or one of them was complicity. Who knows.

I think all of this has been talked over again and again. And I am part of the problem here by continuing to post about it. But I am coming across particularly anti-Horner. I am not a fan because of this, but I am also not pro-Horner PA. It takes two to tango and she stepped into the jaws of that mess on her own. But... Horner as the top of that management chain, and with the given power differential, had a larger responsibility to not engage/participate/pursue as well. So I place much more blame on him.

I will wait and see what (if anything) develops from the recent news. Is there further legal action for example.

Richard

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Richard C

That seems like a pretty low bar to feel sorry for him. I have sympathy for his wife and family. Not much for him.


What is the saying? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes? When in a high profile position, you become a target for getting publicly burnt. Horner is a celebrity. So right or wrong his personal life runs the risk of playing out on the public stage. Then... combine your personal life with subordinate co-workers and you just increase the overall risk. Is it fair? I don't know. Would he have known this is a risk before his actions? I don't think he is that stupid to not know. Did he think he wouldn't get caught? For sure, everyone (dumb or smart) who plays games like this think they will not get caught.


All organizations have some level of internal drama. And I think probably the #1 item for success in F1 is good management. And I think it is fair to say that Red Bull has been distracted recently. They roll from one issue to the next. Be it Hornergate, staff leaving, the never ending questions around Perez, etc. It has got to be a drag on the organization.

Richard

Your angle here is that he is clearly guilty, when it has been dismissed as a non-event. Twice.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Your angle here is that he is clearly guilty, when it has been dismissed as a non-event. Twice.

Have you read any of my posts? People decide to ignore the core of my comments and just zero in on what my position is.

What exactly has been decided twice? The complaint didn't move forward after internal RB review, that was appealed and was reviewed and isn't moving forward after the second and final internal RB review. And even those reviews doesn't say he is innocent. If they say anything it is that there is not enough to carry the complaint forward. Again, I don't know what the yardstick is used internally at RB, so maybe they have relatively loose HR policies and by those rules he might be fine. I used to work at a relatively large organization that had no rules against drinking alcohol on the job or having relationships with subordinates until both caused problems and then policies changed.

If you can find any press release from RB saying Horner has been found to be "innocent" or "cleared of all accusations" please show it here. Horner and and any number of supporters or Horner surrogates will say the statements RB regarding the outcome of the investigations say he is innocent (a "non-event as you say"), but they don't. They are carefully worded to say the complaint is not moving forward, the internal process has concluded or something to similar effect. People will say... "well they are effectively saying that he is innocent, or they are using legal verbiage that says the same thing as him being found innocent". No they are not on both counts. If he was fully cleared, they would say so. You can find examples of businesses doing exactly that. If they feel accusations are baseless after investigation, the sometimes clearly call that out. If they are not making definitive statements regarding Horner due to concerns about future legal actions, then that speaks volumes as well.

This may or may not be the end. The complainant may or may not decide to pursue this outside of the governance of internal Red Bull policies and procedures. Maybe they get a big cash windfall and we never hear from them again. Who knows? My opinion is clear, I think he is guilty of boorish behavior within a professional environment that would result in termination in most large organizations. That is all. I have no idea how local laws are structured and can't say if he might be at risk to future legal action or not.

Richard

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Richard C

If you can find any press release from RB saying Horner has been found to be "innocent" or "cleared of all accusations" please show it here. Horner and and any number of supporters or Horner surrogates will say the statements RB regarding the outcome of the investigations say he is innocent (a "non-event as you say"), but they don't. They are carefully worded to say the complaint is not moving forward, the internal process has concluded or something to similar effect. People will say... "well they are effectively saying that he is innocent, or they are using legal verbiage that says the same thing as him being found innocent". No they are not on both counts. If he was fully cleared, they would say so.

Legal findings don't declare a defendant "innocent" - what they say is that charges weren't proven or that the defendant has been cleared of all charges, or in civil cases, that the claims put forward by a plaintiff have been dismissed.

Here's the statement from Red Bull back in February:

"The independent investigation into the allegations made against Mr Horner is complete, and Red Bull can confirm that the grievance has been dismissed. The complainant has a right of appeal. Red Bull is confident that the investigation has been fair, rigorous, and impartial. The investigation report is confidential and contains the private information of the parties and third parties who assisted in the investigation, and therefore we will not be commenting further out of respect for all concerned."

The language is the same as regular legal language, where declaring someone "innocent" doesn't happen, or is extremely rare.

Reading too much (either way) into the Red Bull statements is probably a worthless pursuit. The complainant may choose to take this further, she may not but the complaints against Horner have been dismissed twice, by two different external KCs and for now, that is all we know.