[BTCC] BTCC 2017 Rumours & Silly Season

[Rob877]

Wow, I honestly can't believe some of the the criticism of PMR on here. At the end of the day, they've brought a new model to the grid and have brought some extra backing too. Surely that's a good thing! It potentially means we're going to have ANOTHER team who can mix it at the front, to add to the 6 or 7 already there. There aren't many series which can boast of those types of figures. It's great to see new teams coming in with the ambition to create these kind of deals.

[thlbtcc]

Originally Posted by BLiTZ

The PMR deal is nothing more than an entry fee and two shells for the price of an entry fee. It doesn't appear to have any approval or support from Vauxhall.

'Appear' is the most important word in your bitter ranting about motorsport spectator stereotypes. You have no idea.

[peebee2]

Really? What's wrong? It's a totally accurate post, like it or not.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Really? What's wrong? It's a totally accurate post, like it or not.

PMR will enter as manufacturer with Vauxhall Astra's. Like it or not. Also, get over it.

[VIVA GT]

Why all this vitriol aimed at PMR?
(A personal vendetta or an axe to grind?)
I was fortunate enough to spend a day with the team last year and they appear (now I'm using that word!) to be a very enthusiastic and ambitious team.
They've now also managed to bring another manufacturer (back) into the BTCC which can only be good for the series, plus they also now seem to be able to attract top named drivers.
What is there not to like?

[S griffin]

I agree, look at their season in 2014. New team to the grid with two Cruzes and they did a brilliant, mixing it with the big boys on several occasions

[peebee2]

Ok, my last post as it clearly riles some people who are set in their ideas.

I have nothing against PMR at all.

I just react to the naïveté of people who think BTCC has manufacturer teams when it doesn't, pro drivers when there aren't any full professional racing drivers in it at all (even Plato earns his income elsewhere) , a level playing field when it is all controlled, and open racing when you actually have to do what you are told if you know what's good for you. Fun and entertaining, and I watch, but not real sport.

Enjoy for what it is but no need to pretend it is something different to reality.

One day there will be a backlash to things like the entrant tax of changing parts just for the sake of it and to generate income at the utterly needless cost to the teams.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Ok, my last post as it clearly riles some people who are set in their ideas.

I have nothing against PMR at all.

I just react to the naïveté of people who think BTCC has manufacturer teams when it doesn't, pro drivers when there aren't any full professional racing drivers in it at all (even Plato earns his income elsewhere) , a level playing field when it is all controlled, and open racing when you actually have to do what you are told if you know what's good for you. Fun and entertaining, and I watch, but not real sport.

Enjoy for what it is but no need to pretend it is something different to reality.

One day there will be a backlash to things like the entrant tax of changing parts just for the sake of it and to generate income at the utterly needless cost to the teams.

I don't know how long you've been watching the BTCC (for me it's getting on for 40 years).
There has always been different levels of manufacturer support and different levels of 'professional' drivers. (A top driver in a team can help that team obtain better sponsorship so, as that driver is effectively bringing money into the team, does that stop them being a professional driver?)
TOCA (who run/organise the BTCC) have accepted PMR Vauxhall as a Manufacturer Team, I think that they are better placed (with all due respect) to make this decision than you are.
Team motorsport has always involved a certain amount of team work (if that's what you're alluding to when you say" actually have to do what you are told if you know what's good for you, you may have noticed a similar situation in the final Grand Prix this year?
I admit that I don't personally like the sterilisation and equalisation that has happened to Touring Cars, I preferred the old days where choosing & re-engineering the right car was the best way to be successful, but I have to admit that The Show that the BTCC makes, (which in turn brings in the sponsorship which enables a full grid of cars) cannot be ignored.
I think that 2017 should be the best season of British Touring Car Racing that we've seen for a very long time...

[antnee]

Gone are the days of true full works teams in BTCC (ie big budgets, paid drivers, massive marketing schemes, etc) - but we shouldn't knock what we have currently.

[Rob877]

Originally Posted by antnee

Gone are the days of true full works teams in BTCC (ie big budgets, paid drivers, massive marketing schemes, etc) - but we shouldn't knock what we have currently.

This hits the nail on the head. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that these are works teams in the way they were during Super Touring. Those days are gone, they were great times but ultimately unsustainable. We probably won't see the like of it again. But in the current economic climate we live in, we're very lucky to have such a healthy, vibrant series on our doorstep.

It doesn't really bother me when it comes to the equalisation being used in BTCC. I like to see the best drivers being tested to their limits, I always think a BTCC champion has to draw on all skills as a racing driver, not just be the fastest all the time. If I want to watch pure racing and get excited about the engineering excellence at play (which I do), I watch other series, it's as simple as that.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by antnee

Gone are the days of true full works teams in BTCC (ie big budgets, paid drivers, massive marketing schemes, etc) - but we shouldn't knock what we have currently.

That really only existed for a short time in the 90s, though...AIUI Group A and before was mostly a driver/owner kind of thing with a few more "works" efforts (like the Prodrive BMWs and the Vauxhall Astras) rounding out the field.

[thlbtcc]

We have some new trolls. Certainly, you are providing fun. From now on it's perhaps best ignore some of their deluded rantings with an ulterior motive.

After all, the WTCC is clearly the future of all motorsport. Let us not forget that.

[RED55]

PMR are the only team from 2016 who ran a 2017 package,2017 Toca engine and RML kit, so id say their planning is much more forward thinking than some teams, 888 being a comparison, they ran gprm/rml ki and a 2016 engine so they don't have the data PMR have gathered this year.

The Astra I'm sure will be quick and Tom is more rounded as a driver than he's ever been so they look pretty strong when you look into it .

[Moneyseeker]

TOCA has created a very sustainable touring car series, where manufacturers can have a presence, where independent teams can design and build their own cars, where independent teams can beat 'works' teams - how many forms of motor sport world wide can match all those credentials?

So what if there are a lot of control and standardised parts and even engines, what does it matter.

Let me tell you something else, if anyone wants 'real works' teams back the consequences are that it would put some private teams out of business as they couldn't compete, costs would spiral trying to keep up, constant bickering over regs, balance and boost parity and you would only ever be ONE board meeting away from them pulling the plug on it as it is not their priority. I was working in the BTCC in the late 90's and I can tell you that at the end of 1999 it wasn't a pretty sight and even more ugly at the end of 2000 as they tried to fill the grid.

Look at the WTCC, the world championship scratching around to make a grid of cars - reminds me when the BTCC brought in the national saloons to make up the numbers, that is where it is due to reliance on works teams and constructors and huge budgets.

Better to have the semi-works (for want of a better term) manufacturer set up we have now. I am happy for them to supply a few shells, pick up the entry fee tab, chip in for engines and buy some hospitality places with the teams and add some badge glitter to the grid.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I just react to the naïveté of people who think BTCC has manufacturer teams when it doesn't, pro drivers when there aren't any full professional racing drivers in it at all (even Plato earns his income elsewhere) , a level playing field when it is all controlled, and open racing when you actually have to do what you are told if you know what's good for you. Fun and entertaining, and I watch, but not real sport.

The governing body writes the rules, and they decide what is or isn't a manufacturer entry.

Are you really suggesting that BTCC is akin to WWE?
I think that claiming that BTCC is not real sport is a massive insult to everyone involved at all of the teams up and down the grid.

[GregoryDG]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The governing body writes the rules, and they decide what is or isn't a manufacturer entry.

Are you really suggesting that BTCC is akin to WWE?
I think that claiming that BTCC is not real sport is a massive insult to everyone involved at all of the teams up and down the grid.

For me, motorsport is about drivers and their cars, not about what kind of teams are running them... If the best drivers wins, it remains a sport!

[BLiTZ]

Wow, some people really took my last post to heart!

Firstly it wasn't a rant against PMR (I chose them as an example). The point I'm making is the perceived difference between a 'Manufacturer' entry (and its open interpretations) and a 'Works' (I.E. operated by a manufacturer) operation whose entire entry is based around the technical and marketing requirements

What I was trying to say was that I don't like this new culture of teams pretending that they're part of the manufacturer and giving off the impression to (and yes this is a generalisation but let's face it it's true) the uninformed masses that make up the average BTCC crowd, that they are the face of whichever manufacturer they happen to have the cars of.

I know the days of Super Touring are long gone and the action of the NGTC era beats what we often forget was an often dreary procession (especially towards the end).

[BLiTZ]

Originally Posted by RED55

PMR are the only team from 2016 who ran a 2017 package,2017 Toca engine and RML kit, so id say their planning is much more forward thinking than some teams, 888 being a comparison, they ran gprm/rml ki and a 2016 engine so they don't have the data PMR have gathered this year

I'd say it was more a case of right car right time. With RML having helped BTC Racing (and also Neate's team?) originally engineer the Cruze (plus their ongoing WTCC efforts) it made sense for them to work with what they know. I'd have expected them to develop the 2017 package with whoever was running them last year.

Whether it's a master stroke is if PMR anticipated this and hung onto the Cruze for 2016 knowing they'd get an early play with the Christmas toys as a result (you'd have thought they'd have pushed for better drivers to gain the most data) or if it was just a happy accident that they had the right car at the right time.

Fact is, if they can get it all together quickly and give Tom some decent time to test pre-season to get to know the car, then there's no reason why they shouldn't be in the top end of the field!

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by BLiTZ

What I was trying to say was that I don't like this new culture of teams pretending that they're part of the manufacturer and giving off the impression to (and yes this is a generalisation but let's face it it's true) the uninformed masses that make up the average BTCC crowd, that they are the face of whichever manufacturer they happen to have the cars of.

This isn't a new culture though.

Let's go back to the early 90s. Those BMWs of Will Hoy and Tim Harvey weren't anything to do with BMW. It was just Vic Lee Motorsport.

Now, when Vic returned to racing in the late 90s with Peugeot, the team was run from the road car factory. But only while it was competing in National Saloons. Pretty much as soon as VLR entered the BTCC, Peugeot pulled the money and the team had to find new premises.

Then we have Jo Winckelhock. This car was entered as BMW Motorsport. It was actually run by Schnitzer which, while being synonymous with BMW, is not BMW. Once again, that car never went near any BMW factory.

Cleland (1995) raced for RML. Menu (1997) for Williams. Rydell (1998) for TWR. Aiello (1999) for RML. Menu (2000) for Prodrive.

Then there were eight consecutive seasons of titles won by 888 or Team Dynamics. The last eight years have seen four more titles by Dynamics, two by WSR, another by RML and one by Eurotech (in a car that was built by Dynamics).

So basically, since 1991, only Tarquini and Biela have actually won the title in cars which fit your very strict definition of "works", and since 2001 nobody has.

[BLiTZ]

Originally Posted by sceptic

So basically, since 1991, only Tarquini and Biela have actually won the title in cars which fit your very strict definition of "works", and since 2001 nobody has.

I get all that, I'm well aware that (aside from Ferrari in F1 and a couple of skunkworks operations elsewhere in the motorsport world) few manufacturers have in-house race teams and rely on the help of external race teams/engineering companies/race preparers (call them what you will) to operate things, however in most cases those teams have been chosen by the manufacturer to be the face of the company, not by approaching the manufacturer and negotiating 'sponsorship' to enter the series!

In some cases those teams have 'earnt' manufacturer support, by longstanding relationships, by representing the brand well enough on their own or by beating the existing factory team on an independent budget. But as we've seen, once flying the flag of the manufacturer then it's the boys upstairs that get more of a say as to how things are run. You're no longer an independent team with full control of sponsorship, engineering or which model you'll be representing.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by BLiTZ

In some cases those teams have 'earnt' manufacturer support,

Out of curiosity - who do you think was the last team in BTCC to 'earn' manufacturer support?

[BLiTZ]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Out of curiosity - who do you think was the last team in BTCC to 'earn' manufacturer support?

(I'm sure someone will shoot me down, but here goes...) Team Dynamics, after years campaigning the Civic EP3, Integra DC5 and Civic FN they eventually gained Honda UK's support to become Honda Racing.

*Pulls pin and runs for cover*

[auroan]

Originally Posted by BLiTZ

(I'm sure someone will shoot me down, but here goes...) Team Dynamics, after years campaigning the Civic EP3, Integra DC5 and Civic FN they eventually gained Honda UK's support to become Honda Racing.

*Pulls pin and runs for cover*

Nope..... I'd say 888 with the Vectra, and RML with SEAT. That in my eyes was the last time we had true manufacturer supported teams.

[jsmee]

Back on topic...?

[BLiTZ]

Originally Posted by auroan

Nope..... I'd say 888 with the Vectra, and RML with SEAT. That in my eyes was the last time we had true manufacturer supported teams.

That wasn't the question. It was which team went from independent to works by earning the manufacturer's attention.

If it was a case of last true works teams then you're correct with 888. The RML deal was another of Plato's wheeler dealerings as far as I can recall.